Oral History Interview with Norma Villarreal Ramírez, 1996 Interview conducted by José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Julie Williams Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 159 pages; 397 KB

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 2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. 7.

 English Spanish Gutierrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation Texas. Court of Appeals Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews Local elections--Texas--Zapata County Politicals, Practical--Texas---Zapata County Mexican Americans--Texas--Zapata County Women in politics--Texas--Zapata County Elections--Corrupt practices--Texas--Zapata County Contested elections--Texas--Zapata County Political campaigns--Texas--Zapata County Political corruption--Texas--Zapata County Politics--Texas--Zapata County Zapata County politics legal training oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos politics voting fraud Zapata County Judge attitudesZapata County politics legal training Villarreal-Ramirez, Norma Ramirez, Norma

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Oral History Interview with Norma Villarreal Ramírez, 1996 Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 7 Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Interviewee: Norma Villarreal Ramírez Interviewer: José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers: Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Date of Interview: July 5, 1996 Location of Interview: Zapata, Texas Number of Transcript Pages: 159 Cite as: Oral History Interview with Norma Villarreal Ramírez, CMAS 7, Special Collections, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries. Norma Villarreal Ramírez Dr. Gutiérrez: We are at the Zapata County Court House, County Judge’s office. This is Norma Villarreal Ramirez, the County Judge for Zapata County. The first area we want to over is biography. Who are your parents; their names; your grandparents; where do they come from; when were you born; and your early childhood? Can you cover all of that and I will prompt you with some questions? Judge Ramirez: OK. We will try. My parents are Derly Villarreal, who is a life long resident of Zapata and my mother is Dolores Villarreal, who is from Laredo and we come back from the early families in Zapata viejo (old). At that time, my grandfather, Catarino Villarreal, had the only gasoline station. And were very much involved with the growing days of Zapata, the changes and the politics. Dr. Gutiérrez: Your mother’s maiden name was what? Judge Ramirez: Rodriguez. Dr. Gutiérrez: And los de Laredo ? (the ones from Laredo?) And that side, the grandparents, where are they from? Judge Ramirez: Actually they lived in un ranchito (a little ranch), which is, I think, no longer existent, but somewhere here in Zapata. And Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you know how your parents met? Judge Ramirez: I think it was at a dance in Laredo and, and I think that is where they met. I don’t know all the details. I have never really asked. Dr. Gutiérrez: When were you born? Judge Ramirez: I was born on December 6, 1963. Dr. Gutiérrez: Brothers and sisters? Judge Ramirez: I have one brother and three more sisters. Dr. Gutiérrez: Their names? Judge Ramirez: My older brother is Derly Villarreal, Jr. He is a Principal at the middle school. The older sister is Yolanda, she is an RN, works at Mercy Hospital in Laredo. Then we have Graciela, who lives in the Valley [Rio Grande] and she is a high school counselor at Memorial High. And then my other sister, Leticia, who is a junior high school counselor here in Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, how are you spelling Derly or what? Judge Ramirez: Derly is D, E, R, L, Y and it really is a very unusual name. Dr. Gutiérrez: This was your father’s name, tambien ?(also?) Judge Ramirez: My father’s name. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did he get that name? Judge Ramirez: I have no idea. Dr. Gutiérrez: It was also your grandfather’s name? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. Uh, no excuse me, let me retract on that. No, it was just my father and my brother. I really don’t know where they got the name but people usually refer to him as Darley or Darby, but never Derly. It is a unique name. Dr. Gutiérrez: It certainly is. Where are you in the scheme of the five children? Are you the oldest, the second, third, or what? Judge Ramirez: The youngest. Dr. Gutiérrez: You are the baby? Judge Ramirez: And the one that, I guess, gives them a bigger purpose to live for in this life. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, the, there are three of you that live here in Zapata? Your older brother, and your sister, and yourself. Everybody else is in Laredo or the Valley? Where in the Valley is your sister teaching at Memorial High? Where is that? Judge Ramirez: In McAllen. Dr. Gutiérrez: In McAllen. Judge Ramirez: But she lives in Progreso and so out of the five, four of us live here in Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, I missed somebody, somewhere. Oh, the one that works at Mercy Hospital in Laredo commutes? Judge Ramirez: She has worked for Mercy, I think about like, twenty three years, so now she only works on the weekends. And then she works with a local home health care. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Judge Ramirez: Here in Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Well, high school, middle school, grammar school; what was Normita like in school? Do they call you Normita? Did you have a nickname? Judge Ramirez: No. They always just called me Norma. Dr. Gutiérrez: Norma. Oh. Judge Ramirez: I think I was very quiet for the most part, but very determined at my school work and especially extra-curricular activities. I was always getting elected Most Popular, you name it, I would be on the ballot. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, that is a contradiction. You know, to be very quiet and yet be the leader? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know how that worked out? Dr. Gutiérrez: You don’t recall asking people? Or, well, saying "I want to do this." or when someone says, "Can we run you for this?" you had to say, "Yes." Judge Ramirez: I, I, when I say quiet, I was vocal to a certain extent. Maybe passive aggressive is what I would describe myself as. And I remember that there was only one time that I lost for, I think it was the Homecoming Queen title in Junior High. And from that day forward, I promised myself that I would never lose at anything ever and I neverdid. Somehow I managed to always be involved or get elected to positions. I was the, I need to go back, it has been such a long time that I can’t even recall, but I was the student body president. Ever since I went into high school, and I think maybe I am mixing things up. Let me start with the junior high. I think I was the vice president in the student council, secretary, treasurer since I first went in. I was a cheerleader, head cheerleader in junior high and I wouldn’t say that I was that strong in academics, uh, A and B. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s not strong? Judge Ramirez: Well, to me, strong would be just getting just straight A’s. Getting a scholarship to go to a major university, but for some reason or other, I was always so involved with extra-curricular activities, trying to do different things for the school, that I almost never had time to really sit down... and I guess, study. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were your brothers and sisters like that also? Judge Ramirez: They were very studious, but not involved. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, where did you get this gene, to be very active and very involved? Judge Ramirez: I think from my father. Dr. Gutiérrez: He was real active? Judge Ramirez: Very, uh... Dr. Gutiérrez: Did he go to school? Judge Ramirez: Yes, he did. He didn’t go to college which is why the five of us knew, even before we were born, that we didn’t have a choice. That we were going to get an education. Dr. Gutiérrez: And your mother? Judge Ramirez: My mother just went to high school as well. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did she finish? Judge Ramirez: Ah...I don’t think she did. I think she might have gone only to the tenth or the eleventh grade and...Now, that is why she is the driving force behind all of us. Dr. Gutiérrez: They are still alive? Judge Ramirez: They are still alive. Dr. Gutiérrez: And how old are they? Judge Ramirez: Sixty five. Dr. Gutiérrez: Both of them? Judge Ramirez: They are both sixty five. And my mom tells me that, in those days, they would never stress education, especially for the women. It was sort of like, finish school if you can, if you don’t, get married, and let the husband support you; and that is basically what happened to my mother. And so she made it a point that we would do more things than she ever did and if it cost her, uh, her life, whatever it would be, she would assure that we would have an education. Because she has always told us that if there is one thing that nobody can take away from you, it is your education. And I think that so far, she has proved to be right. And at one point, we, my dad and my mom had four children in college. How they managed, I have no idea. Dr. Gutiérrez: What does he do for a living? Judge Ramirez: My father, now, is self-employed. He has a propane company. But for many years, he worked as a furniture salesman in Laredo and he would commute every day, every day and he also served as a Commissioner. I think he may have been the youngest Commissioner elected at the time that he was elected. He must have been twenty. Dr. Gutiérrez: In Zapata County? County Commissioner? Judge Ramirez: Uh huh. Zapata County. Dr. Gutiérrez: And your mother, did she ever work out of the house? Judge Ramirez: No, she was a housewife, totally dedicated to the family and still is. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you remember when your father was first elected? Judge Ramirez: It must have been, maybe in the sixties. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. All right. So, in the middle school years, you were very active; you were president of everything; cheerleader; involved in everything! Judge Ramirez: You name it. Dr. Gutiérrez: High school. Repeat again. Judge Ramirez: Oh, I never lost for anything. I was, I played the alto saxophone and I was the first to ever go to state from Zapata and I think I, Dr. Gutiérrez: In music? In the saxophone? Judge Ramirez: In music, yes. Actually, maybe I should have been a musician because I loved it from the bottom of my heart. I really did. Always very dedicated. I was always first chair in the band. I would compete in the valley and people already knew, you know, who would be coming down from Zapata, that they would have to work very hard for the first chair position. I was a twirler for two years and then I think I was the first drum majorette selected in her junior year. Usually it was only senior girls. As a drum majorette in my senior year, our band was the first to ever go to the state marching contest in Austin. And I was homecoming queen, band sweetheart, most popular. I, there were just so many things. The most memorable for me was going to Girl’s State. Dr. Gutiérrez: In? Judge Ramirez: Where was it? Dr. Gutiérrez: No, in what? Basketball, twirler, band or what? Judge Ramirez: Oh, no. Dr. Gutiérrez: Girl’s State what? Judge Ramirez: Girl’s State is sort of like a government-type workshop for high school students and out of the county, they would select, I think it was two girls to go to All-State, I think they call it, or it has been such a long time. But in Girl’s State, they teach you all about county government and I think it was sponsored by the American Legion and at Girl’s State, I was selected Municipal Judge of Cookie Monster County. And by then, I knew that I was going to be involved in politics sooner or later. I greatly admired, and admire, my dad for all the work that he did as the Commissioner. Very down to earth. If he had to take food away from our table to help somebody else, he would do it. And that is where we have an ingrown, what would you call it? Desire to help people, no matter what. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you remember working in his campaigns? Judge Ramirez: Uh, no, I don’t other than always telling him, give them hell. You know. Dr. Gutiérrez: You would tell him? You would give him that advice? Judge Ramirez: Sure. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were there rallies or what? Judge Ramirez: No, politics has changed very much from the way that they used to be. Uh, to the present. In their times, they weren’t as radical, as vocal, as aggressive as we have had to be in the present times. Dr. Gutiérrez: So you don’t remember passing out bumper stickers or cards or going with him to meetings or rallies? Judge Ramirez: No, and do you know why? Because my father believed that the best thing that a candidate could do was to go talk to people on a one-to-one basis. So, yes, when he would have opponents they would have posters, they would have everything, but my dad didn’t even have a card. It was just through talking to people and servicing them that he would get elected. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Judge Ramirez: He didn’t believe in that. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, do you remember, can you repeat again that when you lost something and you said you would never lose again in your life? What was that election? What was that all about? Do you remember? Judge Ramirez: It was the homecoming queen position in junior high. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ohhhh, wow. Judge Ramirez: And I have never lost again. Dr. Gutiérrez: You didn’t like the feeling or you didn’t like the results or? Judge Ramirez: Well, I was just trained... I wanted to succeed at everything that I undertook, and No, I did not take losses lightly. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, do you remember your first notion of when you were going to go to college and you said your mother probably had to do with that, but do you remember your thoughts? When did you say I am going to college; I am going to be ______? Judge Ramirez: Well, in the fifth grade I already knew I was going to college and even earlier. Mostly because, when I was in elementary, in fifth or sixth grade, my older brother and sisters were in college already and I was seeing what it was that they were accomplishing and so by then, it was already decided that I was going. Dr. Gutiérrez: At home, did you speak English or Spanish? Judge Ramirez: Probably both, but more Spanish than English. Dr. Gutiérrez: And in school? Judge Ramirez: English. Dr. Gutiérrez: Even with your friends? Judge Ramirez: Uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh. OK, so what were you trying to be when you went to college at that time? What was the goal? You are going to college, but to do what? Judge Ramirez: Initially, I was going to college to become a teacher. Dr. Gutiérrez: What kind of teacher? Judge Ramirez: Uh, I will tell you something else. I have always, I always wanted to do what is, maybe,out of the norm or not quite possible and I will never be able to explain it. I wanted to teach psychology and then, of course, then later I found out that there is really no teaching positions for psychology at the high chool level. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, there is counselors. Judge Ramirez: I wasn’t thinking of, you know, any other alternatives at that time. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now why would such a young girl pick up on such a big word at that time, if you had those thoughts? I mean, what got you on to psychology? Judge Ramirez: Because I had a sister that majored in psychology and sociology. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. All right, I see. Judge Ramirez: And that is where it came from. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, there is a lot of influence from brothers and sisters? Judge Ramirez: Most definitely. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you have a thought of which college you wanted to go to? Judge Ramirez: Actually, I didn’t really have a choice. It was determined that I would be going to Texas A & I University. And for two reasons. Number one, it was close to home; and, number two, a lot of the friends that you made during the school years in the surrounding counties ended up going to A & I, so it was a friendly atmosphere and close to home, and a cheaper cost-of-living. Dr. Gutiérrez: High school, you were a popular sweetheart, twirler, band, you name it, what were some of your favorite things to do or were you dating already? What kind of a person were you? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know if I should mention this or not. But once I set my mind to do something, I will accomplish it. No matter what. But as far as dating is concerned--No, I never dated. And number two, I started out with this thing that I would get to be sweet sixteen and I went beyond that, but boys were not interested in me at that time. Not at all. Not throughout my high school years. I just had too much to do with the band, with my other extra-curricular activities that I had no time for boys. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you practice the saxophone? Judge Ramirez: I, my mother would drive me to the high school like around seven in the morning, and mind you, at one point I had braces. I would practice until I would get blisters on my lips, but I was going to get the notes and everything perfect. A perfectionist when it came to music. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you graduate? Judge Ramirez: From high school? In 1982. Dr. Gutiérrez: Best subject? Judge Ramirez: Best subject. Government was one. Dr. Gutiérrez: Worst subject? Judge Ramirez: Math, anything that has to do with math. I hate numbers. Dr. Gutiérrez: Any teachers or any people, at this point, other than your dad and your family members that really made an influence in your life? Judge Ramirez: Yes, there was one particular teacher, Teresa Lopez, she taught government. And she was always so.... I need to go back, it has been awhile. But what I remember about her is always saying, "Don’t quit. Be positive." And I think that she played a role. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. You went to A & I. Tell us about A & I. What did you do there? There, it is a commuter school, in a way, people come from all over the place and they go back and forth. Any clubs, any leadership things there? Favorite teacher, subjects, what happened here? Judge Ramirez: Well, actually I tried to be involved as much as I could, but the work load was much more heavier and it was a very difficult transition period for me. And the reason is because in Zapata, in high school, I was everything I wanted to be. And everybody knew me. I went to college and it wasn’t the same. You are talking about a large number of students. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody care to know who you are, but I was somewhat involved. I was in the ballet folcorico (folkloric dancing), I was with the band, with the A & I band. I think I was, I was an officer of the Young Democrats. I don’t remember, I think it was the secretary position. I was also a... Gee, I can’t believe that I have almost forgotten all these things...not the dorm mother, but a resident advisor at the dorm where I was staying at Dr. Gutiérrez: What dorm was that? Judge Ramirez: Oh, you know what, I can’t remember the name. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: They only had one dorm for the girls and one for the men or the boys. And so, whichever dorm it was that was for the girls, that is where I was the resident advisor. Dr. Gutiérrez: Favorite subjects, favorite teachers, favorite activities? Judge Ramirez: Well, my favorite subjects, of course, dealt with psychology. I had never see--and I don’t know if I should mention this--but I had never seen a colored person, really. And when I started going to these psychology classes, you had football players, colored people, Dr. Gutiérrez: Black people, you mean? Judge Ramirez: the Black people. Dr. Gutiérrez: African-American? Judge Ramirez: And it was all just an eye opener. I never really went out of Zapata. Very protected at home, you know, so it was all new to me. But my favorite subjects were psychology, sociology; I remember a Dr. Wheeler that was just excellent. I guess the other thing that I should mention is that I have always been a God-fearing person and I attribute all of my successes to our God. I used to pray the rosary every day. I would go to the rosaries at the church at least once a week. All you would see was older women and here I was, in the ninth grade, being a devoted Catholic. So, religion has played a vital part in my life. There was one book that I read in the sixth grade and not too long ago, I went back to read it again, The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale. I engraved those words in my heart and I would always say, you know, through Christ, all things are possible through Christ. Lots of scripture and I remember, in particular, one time, because I was a Spelling Bee champ, I think it was in the junior high years. I can’t even recall exactly. But I remember one time that they were giving us the exam and there was one word that I just could not think of how to spell. So, I started praying and within minutes, I had the word and if I remember correctly, I placed first in that particular contest. So, Dr. Gutiérrez: So, at A & I you stayed here in the dorm during the week and commuted on the weekends or did you stay pretty much away from home for periods at a time? Judge Ramirez: No, not at all. Not at all. In our family, we were very together and so, come Friday, I was dying to come home. To be with my parents. I wouldn’t even go out or see friends or anything. It was just being at home. Dr. Gutiérrez: Was you dad still county Commissioner? Judge Ramirez: Yes, he was. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you talk about that then or did you get involved in his activities then? Judge Ramirez: No, not as much as I probably should have been involved. I think to a certain degree, my father wanted to shelter us because politics was so dirty. And I recall very clearly, the last time that he was on the ballot, which was a little over four years ago, people would actually come to you and tell you off. Dr. Gutiérrez: You, the daughter? Judge Ramirez: The family. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh huh. OK. Judge Ramirez: The family. And there was no reason other than a threat of whatever, you know, not winning or whatever the case may have been. So, my father always wanted us to stay away, which in a way is ironic because when I first got interested in the current position that I am in, my dad played a role in wanting me to get involved in politics. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, explain that. Now that you are on the subject, we’ll go back and pick up the college. What happened here in this incident? Judge Ramirez: Well, I had been, before I came to Zapata, I was working for Texas Rural Legal Aid in Edinburg. At the time, I could have been teaching, but money has never been an issue for me. I was getting paid nine thousand dollars a year and I had a bachelor’s degree in secondary education, but to me, it was more important to help those that cannot help themselves and it was just a very rewarding job for me. I was attending law school and it, the law school gave me the opportunity to work during the day and attend the classes at night. So, anyhow, I had just graduated from law school and I get a phone call from my dad, telling me, it appears that there may be a position here in Zapata to work with the District Judge. So, I thought, well, you know, there could be some benefits to that. Number one, I always said that I would come home and make a difference here, somehow, some way, sometime. And number two, with a law background, I figured that I would be able to learn many things from our District Judge. To actually see trials, being handled, and other types of hearings, so I came for the interview and I was selected and we moved down. I would attend the Commissioner’s Court meetings to keep our District Judge abreast of any issues that would be coming up and I just could not believe the way that these Commissioner’s Court meetings were being handled. I saw that there was a lack of professionalism and a lack of a real interest to help the community. I saw them self-serving, being interested only in what affected their personal life. And so, at that point I told my father, what have we come to? Dr. Gutiérrez: But he was on the Court at the time? Judge Ramirez: No. He had been defeated. Dr. Gutiérrez: When was he defeated? Judge Ramirez: In the last election. Oh, actually it must have been the term before I came in. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you come in? Judge Ramirez: I just came in, in....’94, ‘95? ’95, I think. Dr. Gutiérrez: You were elected in ‘94 and you took office in January, ‘95? Judge Ramirez: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, he was defeated in ‘92 or ‘90? Judge Ramirez: Uh, Dr. Gutiérrez: What precinct is he? Judge Ramirez: Precinct number 4. I think it must have been in the early ‘90s. I can’t recall exactly. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, all right. So, you and he would talk about what you saw? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. And Dr. Gutiérrez: Would you tell him the same thing that you would tell the District Judge? Judge Ramirez: Uh, in reference to, Dr. Gutiérrez: What you were seeing in the Commissioner’s Court? Judge Ramirez: Sure. Sure. Things were bad. Somebody needed to speak up. Somebody needed to stand out and say, "We are not going to take this anymore." Dr. Gutiérrez: So, what did your dad tell you? Judge Ramirez: Well, that if I believed that I could make a difference and that if I accepted the fact that it was going to be the hardest challenge that I could have, that he would support me totally and fully. But he said, you had better understand, if midway, you are going to want to get out because things are going to get hot, because it is going to get tough, then don’t go for it. But if it is otherwise, then you have my support, And I think, another thing that made me run or get involved in politics was the fact that I had a particular individual that said, "Who do you think you are? You are a woman and what do you think you are going to do to this County Judge? Don’t even try it!" And I said, "Oh, really? Well, you know what, nothing is going to change my mind." Dr. Gutiérrez: What offended you more, the accusation that you were a mere woman or that you were just a mere person not able to handle this County Judge incumbent? Judge Ramirez: I guess what offended me the most, in general, was for someone to tell me that I couldn’t do it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Period. Judge Ramirez: Period. And so, and then I figured that if I win, the people of Zapata win because they are going to get an honest person that will truly take care of business and protect their moneys and if I don’t, I don’t need the job. I don’t need the salary. So, I had nothing to lose. Dr. Gutiérrez: What, where, what are some instances where being a woman has kept you from something? Judge Ramirez: Actually, none. It has been a problem after I get to where I want to be, but it is really, to tell you the truth, I think that Zapata is very progressive because the majority of my supporters were elderly men. And so I really can’t complain about that and it really wasn’t an issue. It was an issue only with a handful of people. Dr. Gutiérrez: And in other facets of life? In college or law school or working for Texas Rural Legal Aid, anytime gender has been an issue? Judge Ramirez: I don’t believe that gender was the issue. I think that maybe being Mexican-American may have been. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you tell us about those instances? Judge Ramirez: One that I can think of, in particular at this time, was with Legal Aid. Most of the attorneys on board were Anglos coming in from New York, from out-of-state, and I know that there was one in particular that had just graduated from law school, and had not passed the Bar yet; was in the process, and Legal Aid had a policy where they would hire you at least for a year with the status, with an attorney status and then if you passed the Bar, they would keep you on board. Well, I remember trying to get into one of the attorney positions that was a legal Aid and they just turned me off completely. They didn’t even want to hear about my interest in the position and I think that the director at that time, made me feel that it may have been because of my being Mexican-American. Dr. Gutiérrez: This is David Hall? Judge Ramirez: David Hall. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s go back and talk about this. You are at college. You got, apparently got a degree in psychology and teaching certificate, what made you and when did this happen, that you wanted to go to law school? Judge Ramirez: Well, even when I was in high school, I wanted to go to law school. And my Primary purpose for wanting to go into that field, there was just such a big opportunity to help people Dr. Gutiérrez: So, you had various goals. It wasn’t just that you wanted to be a teacher of psychology? You also wanted to be a lawyer. Did you have other goals? Judge Ramirez: At one point, and this was when I went to Girl’s State in high school, I greatly admired,... was it Glossenbrener’s position? Dr. Gutiérrez: Representative Glossenbrener? Judge Ramirez: ...and I always wanted to maybe seek, maybe that position, way back then. Not knowing entirely, you know, what the duties and responsibilities would be, but just knowing that you could help even more people by being a State Rep. than perhaps at the local level. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, when you decided to be a lawyer, where did you decide to go to study law? Judge Ramirez: At the time, I was married, didn’t have much money, and there was an opportunity to go to a law school that was near home, again. And that would also offer me the opportunity to be able to work. Dr. Gutiérrez: Which is this law school? Judge Ramirez: Reynaldo Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: That was in Brownsville? Judge Ramirez: It initially started at a church in Brownsville. By the time that I was enrolled, Pan American University, at that time, had given us some space to hold classes and I believe that in my class, there must have been like, up to ninety people that were enrolled. I consider it to be a good law school for several reasons. Number one, the students that made up the class were all businessmen. People that were established and saw the law school as an opportunity to just get another degree on your background. And, number two, we actually had a lot of exposure to real life cases because we had practicing attorneys that would teach at night. And so I feel that we learned a lot just from the professors themselves. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, did you finish all of that and get licensed and all of that? What happened? Judge Ramirez: OK, it is a very long story. When I initially started out, we were going through the process of trying to get the school accredited. At one point we had all the Supreme Court Justices coming down to visit the school, looking at the records, the curriculum, and all of that. They were able to grant some of the students permission to take the Bar for a one year period only. That left me out at that point. And so, I got out of law school for awhile. I had two children while I was in law school, so that made it much more difficult. And so I stayed out for about a year and a half, almost two years, and then I just decided to go ahead and come back. My credit was still good and there was another opportunity now to go to the legislature, to allow them, or to give us permission to take the Bar and I remember, I had just had my second child. It must have been like two or three weeks, and I was already in Austin lobbying with about maybe five people from my class, going door-to-door with all the Representatives, trying to get them to support our bill. And that was one of the most memorable experiences that I have ever had. We were, they were already getting ready to take a vote. Well, before that we had all these Representative that were coming to testify either on our behalf or against and Irma Rangel helped us out a lot as well as Eddie Lucio and there were some other key people that really carried the ball for us. And it was just incredible to see all those green lights going on and at that point, I could not believe the power that they had. They actually had our lives in their hands. We had invested a lot of money, a lot of time, our families sacrificed a lot for us to just finish school, and it was just a wonderful feeling that I will never forget when we had the majority of the votes that would allow us to take the Bar. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, what happened? Judge Ramirez: That summer, we had just graduated, I think it was in May or June and they had, the Legislature had just approved our taking the Bar and we decided to sit for the Bar just so that we would be in the system. Since we went through a lot, we wanted to insure that our spot would be there and once we were in the system, they couldn’t take us out because we thought, what if they change their mind? We just didn’t know what would come back to us and so we took the Bar at that time. It is a very difficult experience and I managed to pass half of the Bar. I need to go back and but I don’t know when I am going to do that. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, so you are halfway through with the license process? Judge Ramirez: Uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, let’s go back and pick up the husband and then the children now. Where did you meet him? Was this in college? Are you dating then? Are you a good dancer? Judge Ramirez: (Laughing) No, I don’t think... Dr. Gutiérrez: What happened at that time? Judge Ramirez: ...I am a good dancer, but I did meet him at a club in Laredo. It was a semester or I think, a month before I graduated from A & I. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is he? Or where did he come from or where did his parents comes from? Judge Ramirez: He, his name is Javier Ramirez. And at the time, he was working in Corpus [Christi]. He was working for Buttercrust [Bread company] and he had been a supervisor for, I think, thirteen years or so, and what attracted me the most was that he was a very hard worker. Very dedicated to his job, very well groomed, and he had good morals and values. His parents are from Laredo. His dad originally, I found out later, was actually from Falcon, so they have roots here in Zapata and I guess, the rest is history. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, where did you get married? Or why did you decide to marry him? Judge Ramirez: Why? Well, Dr. Gutiérrez: Were you dating others? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is this the first serious love affair? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, when did you marry? Judge Ramirez: When did we get married? We just had an anniversary this past Tuesday. I think we got married in ‘87. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. And when did the children come? Judge Ramirez: Like, right afterwards. We got married in July of ‘87 and I had a baby in August of ‘90... or did I get married in ‘88? Jesus, I can’t remember. ‘87 or ‘88, but shortly thereafter. Dr. Gutiérrez: Usually it is husbands that can’t remember. Judge Ramirez: It’s just that at the time that we are interviewing right now, we have so many things that are pending, that my mind is not that clear or my memory that good. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. The first born is which child? Judge Ramirez: The first born is Javier Adan Ramirez, Jr. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is he named after? Judge Ramirez: His father and he was born on his father’s birthday. And he was born in Houston. We lived in Houston for awhile. Javier was transferred with his, after working for Buttercrust, he got a job with Frito-Lay and he had a good opportunity in Houston and so we moved there. I was teaching at the Instituto Norte Americano (North American Institute), teaching people that were going to become citizens English. And that is when "Javy" was born Dr. Gutiérrez: So when was the experience in Edinburg with Texas Legal Rural Aid? Is this before or after, where does that fit in? Judge Ramirez: Before and after. Well, let me backtrack. It has been such a, an interesting life, so many events, major events that have occurred from the time that I got married up until now that sometimes it is hard to place some of those events. Some you don’t even want to remember. But when I finished working at, when I got my degree at A & I, that is when I found out that there was a law school here in the Valley [Rio Grande]. Because there was a local that was attending, so my father said, "Why don’t you find out what law school it is? Try it out. If you like it, maybe you can continue there or just go on to another law school." And, so I immediately moved to Edinburg, my father had paid for all of my education. He never believed in my getting student loans because he wanted to leave me debt-free from educational expenses and so, at the time, I said, "Well, again, I have nothing to lose. Let me go ahead and try this particular law school and see what it is all about. Get my feet wet." And I really enjoyed it because we had small classes and you would work on a one-to-one basis with the professors and they would allow you to take your baby in a carriage and sit in the back of the room and listen to the lecture. So, I started working and then there was an opportunity to work for Legal Aid and I thought it was absolutely wonderful and I worked for Legal Aid for a total of about, maybe a year or two. Then I got married, moved to Houston, and then came back, like a year and a half later to continue my studies there and I worked two more years there at Legal Aid. And then that is when I found out about this job here in Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: And so that required your husband to move with you this time instead of you moving with him? Judge Ramirez: Several times, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: How has that worked out in your marriage? Judge Ramirez: He has been very supportive. Of course, like every marriage, there is problems because you are both overworked, overpaid... Dr. Gutiérrez: Overpaid? Judge Ramirez: Underpaid, excuse me. Underpaid is the word and so you know, there is problems. It is not up until now that we have been able to come out of our financial problems. Dr. Gutiérrez: The second child. When did that occur? Judge Ramirez: She was born in 1991. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is her name? Judge Ramirez: Angela, Angela Dolores. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is she named after? Judge Ramirez: Uh, the grandmothers. Actually my husband’s mother’s name is Angelica and my mom is Dolores, so we named her Angela Dolores. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. So, you are back in Zapata. You are working for the District Judge. Who is this? Judge Ramirez: Manuel Flores is our District Judge. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he still is? Judge Ramirez: And still is. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh, what did you do in that job and what ideas did you have other than being assigned to come monitor the Commissioner’s Court? Judge Ramirez: Well, basically you are the Court Coordinator that sets up a calendar for the judge to hear dates, excuse me, to hear cases, set up trials, try to clear his docket, move it along. Our District Judge is in Zapata only two months out of the year, which is in March and in August. So, what we try to do is to set up as many cases as we can to keep him real busy here in Zapata. Currently I feel that the docket is growing and that we need to have him here more often or at least maybe get a, a County Court-at-Law established here. Dr. Gutiérrez: At that time, did you have stirrings that maybe you should go back and get your law degree once you got the taste of how litigation occurs? Judge Ramirez: It was quite interesting. And yes, I felt that I needed to go back and get my license. Dr. Gutiérrez: If you weren’t a County Judge at the moment, would you go back and do that in a minute? Judge Ramirez: Yes, I would. Yes, I would. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right, but you didn’t. You had talked with your dad, you were challenged by some person that said, "You are a woman and you can’t take on the incumbent." Obviously that is the important part, but something else had to motivate you as to why you started at that position and not County Commissioner, like in your dad’s steps or other positions, County Treasurer, County Clerk, County.... Well, you had to be licensed to be County Attorney, but there have been other positions, why that one? Judge Ramirez: Well, you know, initially, I knew that it was just a matter of time before I got involved in politics. I wanted to make a real difference for our community and I had thought of, maybe, running for the Justice of the Peace position. Get my feet wet, learn more about how our local government works, and then be a little bit more experienced with this position. But what made the difference was the fact that the majority of our constituents here, how would I call it? They were somewhat threatened by the existing County Judge and they, to a point they were afraid of him. And I said, "My God," you know, "there is good, honest citizens here that would make excellent officials, but none of them wanted to run against this particular man." Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is this incumbent? Judge Ramirez: Jose Luis "Pepe" Guevara. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: And I have never believed in impossibilities and someone, things needed to change. They needed to change and nobody was willing to take him on. And I said, "Well, if they are not, I will. I have nothing, absolutely nothing to lose and it will be a good experience for me." Dr. Gutiérrez: Who did you discuss this with, other than your dad and family and husband? Or did you talk to your husband about it? Judge Ramirez: Uh, yeah, I did. He discouraged me. He did not want me to get involved in politics. I can see now why he was concerned about my safety and well-being if I got involved in politics, but my mind was made up. Dr. Gutiérrez: You talk to your mom? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did she say? Judge Ramirez: Uh, at first, she didn’t comment. And she said, "Well, you always end up doing what you want to do, so if you decide to run for this position, we will support you." Dr. Gutiérrez: District Judge, did you talk to him? Judge Ramirez: I certainly did. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did he say? Judge Ramirez: Well... Dr. Gutiérrez: Other than resign? Judge Ramirez: ...at the beginning, you see, nobody took me seriously. And I guess that was to our advantage that nobody thought that we would even make a dent in this election. And at the beginning, at the District Judge’s recommendations and I admire him very much so, so what he would advise me would have an impact on my ultimate decision. Somewhat of an impact because, like I said before, if I decide that I am going to do something, I will do it, regardless of consequences, regardless of whatever. And he said that he felt that I should take the Bar, get licensed first, and then get involved in politics. And I said, well, you know, I considered everything that he said, and he made a lot of sense because personally, now, I think that if I had a law degree or my license, I could do even more good for the community. I could do a lot of things for free, instead of having to pay legal counsel. But I feel that the timing was right. It was just something that all the pieces fell together. It was in October of ‘94, let’s see, October of ‘94? No. When did I come in? Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, the election had to have been November ‘94, so you had to make a decision in ‘90.... Judge Ramirez: ....in ‘93. October of ‘93. An article came out in our local newspaper that I was interested. The current officials and County Judge thought that a former County Judge was going to run for the position. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who would that be? Judge Ramirez: Angel Flores. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: And he was interested to a certain extent and then I guess, he finally heard that I was interested in, let her....[phone rings and she takes it..] Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me turn this off so you can get the phone. Judge Ramirez: Well... Dr. Gutiérrez: All right, we are back on now. We are back on the record. Go ahead. Judge Ramirez: Where was I? Dr. Gutiérrez: You were telling me that you were going to run in spite of people and Angel Flores was rumored to run and Guevara is the incumbent and you are about to do something here in October of ‘93 or a newspaper article came out. Judge Ramirez: OK, let me backtrack a little. Um, one thing that I did--and I don’t even know if I should mention this, but well, it is a learning experience; it may prove to be helpful to somebody else--but when I first started, I did visit some people to feel them out and see how they would feel about a woman running for that position. And there is a Justice of the Peace that I greatly admire, Gabriel Villarreal, in Precinct 2 from San Ignacio and he was one of the first politicians that I visited in Zapata about my wanting to run. He is very honest, hard working, and it, he is a person that I admire greatly because he helps a lot of people, so I went over and I said, "Mr. Villarreal, I am here...." I didn’t know him. I had never met him before. I know about his works, about what he does for the community, but I had never dealt with him on a one to one basis. And I told him what I wanted to do, why, and if he would support me. And to my surprise, he said, "Yes, I will support you." And he didn’t have to say anymore. From then on, it is difficult since I had never been involved, I didn’t know how the people were going to respond to me and actually, when I started my campaign, I went door-to-door. I lost forty pounds during the time. The first house I ever went to was in San Ignacio. I was about to knock on the door and I went back, my sister was driving me, and I said, "Lety, you know what? I can’t do this. What if they tell me no?" And she said, "Oh, you know, if they tell you no, you knock on the next one. Go on. Try it." And all it took was going to that one house and they accepted the idea and said that they would support me and from then on, I couldn’t stop. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why did you go to San Ignacio and start there instead of in your own neighborhood or your own area? I assume that you are living, generally, in the same place where you grew up, no? Judge Ramirez: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why did you start over there? Judge Ramirez: Uh, I really don’t know, other than the people there are very nice and they are very truthful. If they don’t like you, they will tell you. And so I figured that would be a good place to start because they are just so honest and very humble, good, down to earth people. The people that have lived there since the move from old Zapata are still there Dr. Gutiérrez: What is old Zapata? Judge Ramirez: Old Zapata was under water. There was a flood in the 1940s, 1945 or so and that is when they had to relocate to the new Zapata and then we had these little ranchitos , (ranches) that became adjacent to town Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, that is a lake that has been created, no? I mean, it was purposely flooded, started laying, and stuff so that people had to relocate? Judge Ramirez: That’s right. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. At this point, did you have literature? Did you have a card? Did you have speakers, did you have a leaflet? What are you campaigning with? Or are you like your dad, just the face and the person? Judge Ramirez: Well, I started without cards. I didn’t have any money. I don’t come from a wealthy background, just hard working people. I just started without nothing, just introducing myself. I had been away for awhile and nobody really knew me. I came back from college, they didn’t even know I was here. So, I needed for the people to know that I was back. And that I was interested in serving them. And, of course, my dad helped me tremendously. With his propane gas business, by the time I would get to see some of the constituents, he had already been there, and you know, he knows a lot of the people here. He has helped many, many, many people here. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you contact any of the lawyers that came through the Court? How did you raise money and how much money did you raise? How many volunteers did you ultimately have? Judge Ramirez: For the campaign? None. I had, well....initially--I better not say none. Well, you see, we had three elections, so I need to go back to the very first one. It was only my dad, myself, of course, my immediate family helping out in whatever way that they could, and an uncle of my dad’s that is very political. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is his name? Judge Ramirez: Felipe Morales. And he has like, thirteen sons and daughters and those daughters have many, many children and he knows a lot of people. He used to own a gasoline station here, so I think that through business, through giving credit to people, through helping them out, that is how you get the people to support you. But it was just three of us against the whole world, basically. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who did your Absentee Voting, your Early Voting? Judge Ramirez: Uh, the first time, I may have had a sister. I couldn’t afford to pay poll watchers. And I didn’t spend more than maybe, two thousand dollars on campaign materials Dr. Gutiérrez: Where did you get that from? Judge Ramirez: My father. Dr. Gutiérrez: I mean, just outright he gave it to you or did you raise it in fund raisers? Judge Ramirez: No. No, he just gave it to me. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. What did you do with it? Judge Ramirez: With the two thousand dollars? Dr. Gutiérrez: With the two thousand dollars? Judge Ramirez: I bought campaign cards and plywood to get maybe five or six posters done, ads done. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: We did not spend... I never.... I advertised maybe, once in the newspaper because I think they were charging like, a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars for a page. I didn’t have the money and again, I carried on with my father’s philosophy that if you were to see the people on a one-to-one basis, then that is what would get you elected and it did. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many people did you see? Judge Ramirez: Practically the whole town. Dr. Gutiérrez: Just Zapata? Judge Ramirez: It has grown. San Ignacio, La Pena, Falcon. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, all the towns? Judge Ramirez: All of it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is there any place you didn’t go to that is here? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you campaign with the winter Texans? Judge Ramirez: Yes. And I had the Republican’s support in the general election. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do they vote twice? Do they vote here and also vote up north? Judge Ramirez: No. I, well, it is my understanding that they can only vote in one of the places where they maybe registered, but some, because they live here at least eight months out of the year, they are registered voters here. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, when did you file actually? Judge Ramirez: Let me see, the deadline is January 1st, 5th, January 5th. Dr. Gutiérrez: Close to the deadline, you filed? Judge Ramirez: That same day. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you pay a filing fee or did you do it by petition? Judge Ramirez: I believe in supporting our Democratic Party and I paid... Dr. Gutiérrez: What is the filing fee here? Judge Ramirez: ...a thousand dollars, if I am not mistaken. Dr. Gutiérrez: That is a lot of money. How much is a County Judge salary? Judge Ramirez: Thirty one thousand a year, plus if you serve on the Juvenile Board, you can get paid extra, like an extra forty five hundred. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, who ultimately filed? Who did you run against? Judge Ramirez: Uh, Jose Luis "Pepe" Guevara. Dr. Gutiérrez: The other fellow did not file? Flores? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, it was just heads up. So, you run against the incumbent? Judge Ramirez: Uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: Any Republican opponent possibly? Judge Ramirez: None. Dr. Gutiérrez: None. So, you walked all over the place. What were the results the first time around in the, was it a March Primary? Or May? It was March. Judge Ramirez: March Primaries. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was the results? Judge Ramirez: I lost by forty five votes. At the time, I was exhausted. I had visited everybody, my uncle Felipe got bitten by a dog at one of the houses, we had lots of coffee, pan dulce (sweet bread), the welcome was just so good. The response from the community was excellent. I recall maybe only three homes where they flatly said, "We will not help you." And, you know, it is appreciated when they speak to you with the truth. If they were to say, "Well, look, I don’t think that you are experienced enough." or "I am committed to helping the other person," that is fine. But, some, and I think obviously, you know, the majority were being honest with their responses. And so, election time came around. The most, we made lots of history in many, many ways that election year. Number one, we had the indictments that came down on the Sheriff, the County Judge, and the District Clerk. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you know all that was in the works? Judge Ramirez: I suspected. You never know. But you suspect because you see what they are doing. And I remember that I used to have conversations with the District Clerk about the ballots. You see, it had been a practice for them to open up the locks on the ballot boxes, either put additional voted ballots, change them, or do whatever needed to be done, to ensure a victory for the candidate of their choice. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is they? Judge Ramirez: This group of people. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: And I really do believe that when my father lost that last time, they cheated him out of his election. I was a poll watcher and there was such little power that I had that I couldn’t stand it. I was seeing what was going on and it was real difficult for me to cope with it, but nevertheless we lived through that and it was a learning experience and an eye opener for me. So, the first thing that I did, I got a copy of the Election Code, because I didn’t know what the law provided and I wanted to make sure that things were going to be done accordingly and that if I was going to lose, I was going to lose because that was really the people’s voice and vote. That I was not going to let anybody cheat me out of an election. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you win the Early Voting? Judge Ramirez: No, and I will tell you, it was very scary. The Early Voting.... OK. Well, before that, we had a couple of debates, the last one was at the American Legion and someone called and said, you know what, don’t even prepare for it. They are coming to get him. People were already talking because they were doing things out front, illegal things out front. Dr. Gutiérrez: Such as? Judge Ramirez: Well, like with the Purchasing Department, I mean, you had P. O.s where you could see what it was that they were doing. You had a political candidate that would come in and they would get a P. O. to pay for the panchanga (political social event). Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, you knew this at that time? Or you knew this later? Judge Ramirez: We knew this before. We knew what was going on. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Judge Ramirez: We knew that they were mishandling the moneys from the indigent program and they came under grand jury investigation. But because of politics, it didn’t travel further out, other than just staying there and not doing anything about it. It was just a number of things that were just so out in the open that it was just una verguenza (an embrassment) for those of us that have lived here for years. And so two weeks before the Primary elections, they come down with the indictments. I believe that Early Voting had already started before then and the first day he put in two hundred votes. The second day, a hundred and ninety, the third day, a hundred and fifty, and then the indictments came and they slowed down. But what we were noticing was that a lot of the people that were coming in to vote were not from here. We are locals. We have lived here for a long time. We know the people and one of the, well, one of the most interesting aspects of that March Primary was that I knew that illegal votes were coming in. I called everybody that I could, the Secretary of State, attorneys, everybody, and basically, the response was, "There is nothing you can do at this time except document and when the election is over, you can file an Election Contest." And I said, "But that is not fair. Look at what is going on. All the hard work and we know that these people are not qualified voters." So, at that time, I was on the phone, at the County Clerk’s office, speaking to someone from the Secretary of State when all of a sudden, this man just opens the door and says, "We are the FBI." And I will never forget that. They had the big guns. They had a box. And in his wallet, if I am not mistaken--it was a white card, like a credit card--and it had black letters that said, FBI. And they started searching. And it was funny that people started saying that the FBI came in because I was calling them on the phone. And that very instant they responded and they came to help us. So, I thought, well, maybe I do pose a threat to some of these people, because they know that I will not let up. Dr. Gutiérrez: Had you called the FBI? Judge Ramirez: No. The investigation or the operation, the Prickly Pear Operation had been ongoing for two years. So it was going on even before I came in. But it is just that the timing was just so perfect when it all happened. As a matter of fact, the County Judge was just bringing in a voter that morning, when the FBI came in and took him. And he left the voter standing there. Dr. Gutiérrez: They arrested him? Judge Ramirez: They arrested him. It was very interesting. Dr. Gutiérrez: Then what happened? Judge Ramirez: Well, I just could not believe that he came out ahead with forty five votes after the indictments and all. So, at that point, I thought, well, if the people want this type of government, then they are entitled to choose and to live with it. But then, a week later or so, there was an article in the McAllen newspaper, in the Monitor, and I have a copy of that article, and "Pepe" Guevara was basically saying, "The people elected me because they know that I am innocent and they didn’t want her because of her father." He made a very... a remark that I just didn’t like, and I said, "Oh, really! Well, I will tell you something. I have news. I am not going to let it go because I know who voted, and who was qualified and who was not qualified to vote. So, why don’t we just go through the experience of filing an Election Contest? " Well, even at that, nobody could really inform me as to what to do or how to do it. Basically they were like, leave it alone. Leave it alone. You know, the people have spoken and I said, no, they haven’t. I wasn’t convinced that they had spoken, so I found out about this attorney in Laredo, Armando Lopez. Immediately, I contacted him and he is very interested in causes like this that nobody else might be interested in. And what helped a lot was that number one, we knew the people, we went through the whole registration list and you could pinpoint who was not from here and who were the convicted felons that voted. Because we had over a dozen convicted felons voting. And the way that we found out was that I was the Court Coordinator at the time and I had prepared the judgments on some of these convicts. So, when we went down the list, it didn’t.... Dr. Gutiérrez: You remembered? Judge Ramirez: ....make sense. We remembered who was that.... Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you resign from that position? Judge Ramirez: Uh, the Court Coordinator’s position? It was in December. Before my, before the inauguration. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, you kept the job all the time that you are running for...... Judge Ramirez: I kept the job. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: The Judge was kind enough to let me keep my job. Of course, he was very strict: No campaigning. No using the phone. None of that coming from my office, and I did take a leave of absence for a while. I think it must have been for about a month or two right before the election, so that I could have this extra time too. Dr. Gutiérrez: How much money did you have to spend on legal fees to do your Election Contest? Judge Ramirez: Over twenty thousand. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you raise that money? Judge Ramirez: My father. Dr. Gutiérrez: No fund raisers? Again the father’s, just straight out, check? Judge Ramirez: We had some moneys coming in. I, I must have had a total of about, maybe, four thousand dollars that came in from contributions. Again, and I, I might have done it different or may do it different next time, but we don’t like to ask for money. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, what did you prove with this contest? What happened to with the Election Contest? Who was the judge that heard the case? What happened? Judge Ramirez: We had a wonderful judge and not because he ruled in our favor. Solomon Casseb from San Antonio, I believe. He was the judge there. These people were used to buying out people, pulling strings to get what they want, and Judge Casseb was just a very fair judge and I didn’t know whether we were going to be successful with the Election Contest or not. But in my heart, I knew that whatever decision was rendered by the judge, at that time, would be a fair decision. Because you could see in the trial, he was very fair with both sides. He did not give us any kind of leeway, nor did the other side. And actually the whole trial was very interesting. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many days did it last? Judge Ramirez: Two. I wish it would have lasted longer because, to me, it was just a great experience. One of the convicted felons had been given probation for a murder that he committed a couple of years back. He actually murdered a family member of mine. And they were bringing him in to say that he had voted for me. Because the judge had the discretion to believe their testimony or not and if he had voted for me, then well then, they couldn’t count him out. It never got to that point because prior to that, and it was just so incredible, we had one Commissioner that was out in the hallways, yelling at the top of his lungs, " manana que vengan ," (tomorrow when you come) to the Courtroom, you are going to say that you voted for her." He was coaching them as to what they were going to say. And, the judge had given instructions that nobody was to communicate, you know, with the witnesses that were going to come in and even at the time when we had the hearing the next day, the attorney for the judge [county], at that time, it came out during testimony that he had coached them. Dr. Gutiérrez: Which attorney is this? Judge Ramirez: Ricardo De Anda. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the Commissioner, who was that? Judge Ramirez: Jose Luis Flores, who presently serves on the Court. And so they had another convicted felon and all of the felons were convicted for drug charges, these were all part of the same clan or the same group, governing body that was in place at that time. One of them came in and I think, when I was a senior in high school, well, when I was a freshman in high school, he was a senior and he said, "Oh, I voted for her." You could tell that he was not telling the truth. Oh, and subsequently, he was arrested again on drug charges and he is now off for twenty, thirty years. He is doing time. And I told my attorney, why don’t you ask him when was the last time when he spoke to me. And he just... the attorney did an excellent job just taking the truth out of him and the judge, of course, did not believe his testimony. And they were about to bring in the other convicted felon, the one that had murdered a family member of mine, but at that point, I guess the defense attorney saw that things were not going so well for them, that they decided to just go ahead and give their closing arguments and the trial ended. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the judge ruled in whose favor? Judge Ramirez: In our favor. Dr. Gutiérrez: But what did he do? Did he put you in his place or did he order a new election? What did the judge do? Judge Ramirez: Oh, he ordered a new election. He ordered a new election. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, here you go again. Judge Ramirez: We had two hundred and sixty two people voting with affidavits. That is how it is done around here and it is very disturbing, I think that something needs to be done through the Legislature to change that. I understand why affidavits are necessary, but when there has just been abuse, that is when it needs to change. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s talk about the next election. I mean, you started right away, immediately. Judge Ramirez: OK, well, the judge ruled in our favor and it is, I am ordering a new election. And we thought, great, you know, we will have an election within, I think he ordered it within thirty or thirty days or so. Well, it wasn’t over. Here we are, getting our rest again, getting ready to go campaign for a second time and go door-to-door again. And then, what happens? They appeal. So, here we go. We are going to the Court of Appeals. More money. You see, for them, it didn’t cost them anything because the money that they had, they didn’t work for. It was money that just came easy. Now, for us, they thought that they would deplete our pockets and we would have to quit because we wouldn’t have the money. Luckily, my father sold a lot of propane during that election year. He would work day and night so that he would have moneys available and of course, the attorney was very good also. For the appeals, he didn’t demand money right up front, or that much, not even a quarter of what he was charging, and so here we go. We go to the Court of Appeals, the arguments, what is it, the oral, uh, arguments lasted maybe seven minutes on our side and maybe five on theirs. The case was clear cut.... I can’t even backtrack and go back to all the elements that were proven. But there was enough evidence to show the Court of Appeals that there were unqualified voters that had voted. And it was also obvious, we had people using, voting using Guevara’s address. One of them supposedly was living in their auto parts building. It was just incredible. It was beautiful. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, what did the Court of Appeals, this is in San Antonio, you had to travel to San Antonio? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. We loved it. My whole family was there supporting me. They affirmed and the decision came within a couple of days. I want to say, maybe two days. And then all of a sudden, my attorney calls and says, "Guess what? We need to celebrate!" And I said, "Why is that?" He goes, "Well, the Court of Appeals affirmed the decision." And so they... We had an election. In the second election in July, we were able to come out ahead, I believe, by maybe five or six hundred votes. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you campaign? Judge Ramirez: Again, door-to-door. Door-to-door. Dr. Gutiérrez: More volunteers this time or still none? Judge Ramirez: This time, no, well, I may have added two more volunteers to my campaign. Dr. Gutiérrez: More family members or other people? Judge Ramirez: Friends. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who were they? Judge Ramirez: One of them was Nina Gutierrez. And the other one, who was the other one? Oh, maybe it was just Nina. I had silent supporters. Not those that would go out and have a parade for me... Oh, and that first time, when he came out ahead, he along with all his supporters passed by my house several times, honking and saying, "Hey, you know, we beat the daylights out of you." It was just incredible. I couldn’t get over it. Dr. Gutiérrez: How much money did you spend in July? Judge Ramirez: In July, very little money. Not even a hundred dollars, because what I did, I had left-over cards from the previous campaign. So, I had my brother typing in the new date on the stick-ons. And then cutting all of them and just putting on the new dates, and I used the same cards. I couldn’t afford to, we already spent a lot of money and I couldn’t afford to get more campaign materials. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, who ran your Early Voting in July? Judge Ramirez: Again, family. I had my poll watchers were family members. I didn’t have to pay them and they were available at the time to help me out, and, so we came out very well. One thing that I didn’t mention, and you know, this is South Texas politics for you, that during the March primaries, we had the County Judge giving out money to people. He gave a truck to one person that I know. He was actually buying votes, that is what they were doing. Dr. Gutiérrez: With personal funds or county funds? Judge Ramirez: Well, it can’t be proven, but I am sure that it is not personal. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you have had access to the records, so, have you looked? Judge Ramirez: No. I wouldn’t be able to make a determination based on what we have seen so far, but well, they had moneys coming in from other sources. Dr. Gutiérrez: What happened to his arrest and his indictment, and did he ever get tried? What happened to him? Judge Ramirez: He got tried at the Federal Court building in Laredo, and I think he was sentenced to seven years. Dr. Gutiérrez: You said you had three elections, that is only two. I mean, you did the Primary and then you did the July work. Are you talking about the November election? Judge Ramirez: The November election. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you have a write-in or did you have somebody? Judge Ramirez: We had a write-in candidate. They were not just going to let me just go in like that. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where was that? Judge Ramirez: David Morales, who was the Commissioner at that time for precinct 3 and he was on his third term. One of the old Commissioners there...and before I get into that, I do want to mention that these people had barbecue pits in every stop sign that you could see. We had supporters that would come in and it was like, well, we have nothing to offer them. We couldn’t politic in that way. So, they would come to our side and it was like, well, you know, go cast your vote and then go get a plate on the other side. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, they were giving food? Judge Ramirez: They were giving food away. Dr. Gutiérrez: At intersections or where? Judge Ramirez: Oh, yeah. I mean, they had barbecue pits all over town. I mean, the people had a feast. And I guess that, you know, it was good for them. They still cast their votes the way that it should have been. Then, everything came out fine and then we come to the November elections. The particular Commissioner, that ran as the write-in candidate, came out publicly saying that we are supporting Guevara even after his conviction, supporting everything he had ever done and when you read the article it makes you want to get sick. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you first learn that he was going to do this? I mean, you must have celebrated and said, all right, this is clear sailing. I am the County Judge. I have just got to wait for January. Judge Ramirez: Actually, I never thought it would be that way. Something had to come up. I just didn’t figure that they would do it that quick. There were rumors like you are going to get a write-in candidate, so we expected it. And sure enough, he announced, they appointed him the interim County Judge for awhile and he left his precinct, his people.... Dr. Gutiérrez: He had to resign his precinct, no? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: He did held both? Judge Ramirez: He, well, he left it vacant. He left the position vacant. When he became the interim County Judge, I guess at that point, he decided I want to be judge. He might have known even before then, but he left his people without representation. It was only a temporary appointment and so I guess... Dr. Gutiérrez: When was he appointed? Do you know? Judge Ramirez: I... he must have been appointed probably in July. And then he filed as a write-in candidate August or September, around that time and they used the same tactics as they did in the March primaries. We started seeing illegal voters coming in. At the time the people were more aware that you just couldn’t go in and vote just because you wanted to. You had to meet several criteria and they still managed to get in at least about a dozen illegal voters. At which point, I called the District Attorney’s office and I said, "Look, I am very tired of this situation. We have worked very hard to get to where we are at and I expect for you to try to do something about it." Because nobody ever wanted to respond. Or at least they wouldn’t respond as quickly as we wanted them to. And I said, "and if you don’t do something about it, I am going to the media, to let them know that you are fully aware of the voting practices down here and you are not doing anything." Well, at that time, they sent the County Attorney and they started getting copies of the Voter Registration lists and they basically let the people know that they were going to prosecute anybody that was not qualified to vote. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is there a high literacy rate here in Zapata County, where people could actually carry out a write-in campaign and this would be a threat because everybody would know what to do and how to do it? That is difficult to do. Judge Ramirez: You see, they have a lot of supporters that are willing to come out and support them no matter what. You see, a lot of my supporters are silent because the majority of the people here are employed by the county or by the school district or by the bank and they didn’t feel at ease to come out and say this is how I feel. Everybody was threatened in one way or another. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is the school and county the largest employers here? Judge Ramirez: Yes they are. Yes they are. Dr. Gutiérrez: There is no other major industry or business or manufacturing? Judge Ramirez: No, there isn’t. And that is what we.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Is it all small business catering to the lake, recreation business, is that basically it? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: A lot of oil and gas or ranching or what? Judge Ramirez: Ranching, yeah. Oil and gas for the most part. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Do you all use paper ballots or do you have machines? Or how do you vote? Judge Ramirez: In my election, it was paper ballots. Now, we have a new system. It is not computerized, but there is a machine that will do it for you. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is it a punch thing? Punch ballot? Judge Ramirez: Yes, uh hmm. Dr. Gutiérrez: With a little needle? Judge Ramirez: It has a, no actually... Dr. Gutiérrez: Or is it levers that you move? Judge Ramirez: No, you get, I guess that it is like computerized ballots and I don’t know, there is a system there that the ballot, that the machine will count it for you, but it is really like, like a paper ballot. I will have to show it to you. We just started using it in this last election, so I am not too familiar with how it works. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, when did you know this guy was actually running out there? Judge Ramirez: Almost immediately. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, in August? Judge Ramirez: We knew it, we knew. Dr. Gutiérrez: And what did you do then? How did you campaign? Where did you get the money? How much money? How much volunteers? Same questions. Judge Ramirez: I still had cards left over. You see, what happened was this, that the first set of cards that they printed for me, they did it wrong, so they had to re-do the cards because they had put in the wrong date. And, so I had an extra box of cards. Here we go again, you know. Writing the date on the printer and then cutting it out and pasting it on the cards. Imagine pasting and cutting three thousand strips and manually putting them there. It is a lot of work. And then having to cover your back to make sure that everything would be done proper. It got to the point where I even had to get a video camera because I was just so tired of what they were doing and it was nasty for awhile. Dr. Gutiérrez: What were they doing? What did you film? Judge Ramirez: Uh, people, illegal voters that they were still bringing in and they quit. Dr. Gutiérrez: Because of the video camera? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know why. I imagine that. Dr. Gutiérrez: You parked yourself or you had someone do this? Who was doing the video camera for you? Judge Ramirez: Oh, a cousin of mine. And it didn’t even last, you know, for that long. I didn’t know what to do. My hands were tied behind my back. Dr. Gutiérrez: Whose idea was that? Judge Ramirez: Um, you know, I don’t recall. I think a sister of mine said, "Why don’t you start video taping?" Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s here at the County Clerk’s office? Judge Ramirez: Well, as they were coming in. Dr. Gutiérrez: Outside in the parking lot? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, did you walk all the houses again? Judge Ramirez: Almost all of them. There were some precincts, well not precincts, some areas, where I could not count on their support, and, so I didn’t bother. I started with those with the big families that would help out. Dr. Gutiérrez: What advice is the J. P. giving you during all this time, the one from San Ignacio? Judge Ramirez: Actually, there was very little communication. It was all done silently, you know, him helping out with his family and everything was just real quiet and when I won the third time, you didn’t hear anybody honking their horns, you didn’t hear anybody yelling, screaming, and that is how all the people knew that I had won, because it was quiet. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were there any other Commissioners running with you at the time or did you have a slate or did you just running by yourself with no one else running that you supported or they supported you? Judge Ramirez: I was running by myself. I did not have the support of the Commissioners. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, so you won? What was the vote in November? Judge Ramirez: I wish I could remember the exact totals. I will provide you with all the articles and all of that. But I think we came out ahead by four hundred votes or so. Now, what was the most interesting part was this, OK, the interim County Judge leave the precinct 3 Commissioner slot open. He is getting pressure to appoint someone, that he needs to appoint someone. Before, if I am not mistaken, before he fought, well, maybe it was after the election, he appointed an eighteen, nineteen year old individual to fill his position. As I understand, what I wanted to assure that he would continue being on the Commissioner’s Court if he lost the election. And basically what was going to happen was that they were going to buy out this Commissioner eventually so that he could go back to the position. Two weeks or maybe three weeks before the inauguration, they called a special meeting, the Commissioner’s Court. They were going to appoint this woman as the interim County Judge for two weeks for various reasons. Number one, so that I would not be the first woman County Judge. I couldn’t believe this. I had won an election and nothing could change that. But they wanted for this woman to go on record that she would have been the first woman County Judge. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is this? Judge Ramirez: Now we are friends. I actually, I don’t consider people as being my enemy if anything, it is them that don’t like me, because I don’t really despise anybody. Omelia Villarreal, she is very active with the Historical Commission, but she knew exactly what they were trying to do. Dr. Gutiérrez: She has told you all of this? Judge Ramirez: No, we have never spoken about the subject, but through other people we found this out. She is a school teacher, to go along with their plan, was just unbelievable, but their plan was that they were going to get Omelia as the County Judge. The boy, the Commissioner, would resign, and she would appoint Morales back to the position. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did it happen? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: What went wrong? Judge Ramirez: Luckily, there has been divine intervention throughout all of this election process. We had some citizens filing an injunction to stop the meeting and what was it based on? Jesus, I should have reviewed my notes, but they filed an injunction and they brought, the injunction was brought in like ten minutes before their meeting started. Dr. Gutiérrez: Which judge granted it? Judge Ramirez: Uh, it may have been, I don’t know if it was Judge Flores or not, our District Judge. No. Somebody else granted it, now that I remember, Sabaneta, because Judge Flores wanted to keep out of it because I was employed by him. So, he kept a very low profile and it was just beautiful. You know, you have the upcoming interim County Judge dressed up, you know, in a beautiful gown, you have all the family coming in, and then it is like, sorry, your meeting can’t take place. And then it was just too late for them to do anything and I came in. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who swore you in? Judge Ramirez: Uh, Judge Flores. Manuel Flores swore me in. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was the first thing that you did? Did you get sworn-in at midnight or in the morning on the first? Judge Ramirez: Actually you need to read the article. It is the most unique and different inauguration that we ever had. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, tell us about it. Judge Ramirez: Well, you see we came in with the spirit of wanting to help. At that point, for me, it was let politics go out the door, let’s work together, you know. Maybe we may have different political differences, opinions, let that go, let’s start working together and it was only at that time that it appeared that we were all going to be working together. They had the District Clerk sworn in, the Treasurer, two Commissioners, two J. P.s, and some other elected officials. And an uncle of mine paid for some mariachis (Mexican troubadors), I didn’t even know the group, and it was real beautiful. I planned it out. I had the color guard coming in. I wanted it to be very professional. The veterans supported me greatly, they still do. So we had a Color Guard presentation. We had my son, the Clerk’s son, and the Sheriff’s son. They are between the ages of six and eight, leading everyone into the Pledge of Allegiance. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where physically was this held? Judge Ramirez: At the District Court room. And it was packed. It was a very beautiful ceremony. For me, I will never forget it because my father means the world to me. He had worked very hard. And he was very ill. And we weren’t sure that he was going to make it. We had all worked too hard for him not to be there. They had him, I think it was on, an IV and he had heart problems, and, so we were all devastated. And even when he was there, my biggest supporter was my dad. I love him to death. So, it was a very emotional inauguration, it was very nice. There was a lot of unity. Of course, things have changed since then. And everybody was very excited that we had a new beginning, that we had new people that were not afraid to stand up and try to correct what was wrong. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was the first things that you did? Did you walk over here and what did you do? Who gave you the keys? Judge Ramirez: Oh, even at that. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did you do here? Judge Ramirez: It is important to know that the judge had a secretary, an administrative assistant, a Court coordinator, the nutrition director and the projects coordinator under him. Well, before I came in, they moved them out of the judge’s budget, which basically the budget was already in place. There would be very little that I could do; when I came in, I didn’t know if I was going to have a staff working for me and I had volunteers that called and they said, "Look..." because they had already transferred them to another building. They were getting desks. I was going to be here alone answering the phone and doing all the paperwork. And so my volunteers said, "if nobody shows up, we will work for you for free. We will answer your phone, we will do whatever needs to be done." That day, I don’t think anybody handed keys to me. I just walked in, not knowing if anybody would be here or not. Dr. Gutiérrez: It was open? This is January 1st and it is a holiday. It was open? Judge Ramirez: It was open. The staff was here. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was the first thing you did? Did you look in the drawers? Did you sit down in the chair to see if you liked it? Did you talk pictures down or put pictures up? What did you do? Judge Ramirez: Actually, for the record, this office did not look like this. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did it look like? Judge Ramirez: Uh, well, number one, when I walked in, the first thing that I saw was this humongous trash can filled with trash all the way to the top. Everything, nothing was filed. Well, the FBI had been in the office, so they had taken out boxes and nothing was organized. I could not find records to anything. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you go through the trash? Maybe important things were there? Judge Ramirez: Actually, I found... I did go through the trash. And even before I came in, I had an aunt of mine, who is very religious, coming in to pray over the office. I mean, I don’t want any negative or evil spirits, you know, being left around before I did the job. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, she came in before you did to do a prayer? Judge Ramirez: We had just like a little prayer meeting, I really wanted to start off on a good foot and then I started looking through the drawers and I found a piece of paper, where actually, I think it must have been Morales had a little chart of how he was going to become Commissioner again. And he even had the word payment to the new Commissioner. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you have that piece of paper? Judge Ramirez: I have it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can we have a copy of it? Judge Ramirez: If I find it, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ohhh, you know where it is. Judge Ramirez: Oh, yes, I will provide you with a copy. Dr. Gutiérrez: What else did you find? What else did you do? Judge Ramirez: It was, well, the day that I came in, the phone calls started coming in. Dr. Gutiérrez: And you are answering the phone? Judge Ramirez: No, I had the staff. They decided to come in. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who were the volunteers? Which staff? Judge Ramirez: The former staff..... Dr. Gutiérrez: They came back? Judge Ramirez: ....from the County Judge, they decided to stay. And I, really... they are not here any longer. I really wanted to work with them, but then... I kept them, as a matter of fact, for about three months. If I had been someone else, I would have fired them the day that I, January the first, but I came in with the spirit of wanting to work, but it doesn’t always work that way. And I found out that even before the agenda would be posted, or some matters would be taken care of, the other side or the opponents, knew about it, and so things didn’t work out. And sadly enough, one of them I just transferred and the other one decided to quit and then I brought back the projects coordinator that is still with us and eventually the nutrition director got another job. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, now you have never been a County Judge before. You don’t know what the budget has or doesn’t have. Maybe you have never even seen the budget at this point. About those aspects of the job, what did you do? How did you go about learning what to do as a County Judge? Who did you ask for advice? When did you first look at the budget? Who helped you study it? What did you do? Judge Ramirez: Uh, I came in alone and I had no one that was willing to help me and so whatever little I have learned up until now, most of it has been on my own. I tried to get together with the Treasurer. He would not speak to me. I resorted to communicating with him through the fax machine because he would not return my calls. Up to this day, he will not step into my office. I have a Commissioner that shoots the finger in Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: To you? Judge Ramirez: Well, I did not want to look because I was just afraid I might make him swallow the gavel and I have to be ladylike and professional all the time. But it is just a long story. Dr. Gutiérrez: Which Commissioner is this? Judge Ramirez: Commissioner Flores. Jose Luis Flores. Dr. Gutiérrez: The same one that was out in the hall? Judge Ramirez: That one. He had made my life miserable. Dr. Gutiérrez: How old is he? Judge Ramirez: He, he must be, what, in his early forties. I don’t know, I don’t know how old he is. Dr. Gutiérrez: But he is older than you? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: How long has he been a Commissioner? Judge Ramirez: He is probably going on his third term You see they take things out of context. He comes from a family background where most of his brothers are in jail for drug trafficking. And during the indictment and with all the changes that Zapata was going through, someone wrote an article, writing down all county employees that had worked for the county at one point and were now indicted on drug charges and things like that, and his brother came out as one of those. He started saying that I had written the article. I mean, I had nothing to do with the publishings that were taking place, and he just, for whatever reason, I think that I may be competition for him in the Courtroom, in the sense, and I think that this is very unladylike, and not a good thing for me to say, but I will say it--I think he resents having another woman in the Court. That is what it boils down to. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, who is the other woman? Aren’t there all men on the Commissioner’s Court? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you suggesting that he is gay? Judge Ramirez: Basically. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: No, we don’t suggest. Dr. Gutiérrez: He is gay? Judge Ramirez: Yeah. And that has nothing to do with anything, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, there is a greater suggestion, that women don’t get along. What about those politics? The politics of women on women. Are there women office holders in the county of Zapata? Judge Ramirez: Yes there are. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who? Judge Ramirez: Our Tax Collector is a woman and our District and County Clerk is a woman. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you get along with any of them? Judge Ramirez: Uh, to my surprise, no. Not because of me, because my doors are open, but because others choose to be that way. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did they support you or did they support the other? Judge Ramirez: I had no support from the county. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, do you think that this is because you are all women or because they are just simply on another political camp? Judge Ramirez: On another political camp, I think, because well, there could exist some friction. You know, all of a sudden, you know, you get the lime light because you are a woman and now there is another woman coming in, but in the judge’s position. And so maybe there is a little threat somewhere in there, but I would rather think that is not the case. Because for me it wouldn’t. I would be very extremely proud to have someone from our gender moving up ahead and opening up the doors for others to come. So, I choose not to think that way. I think it was because they were on the other political side. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s talk about the budget. When did you first look at the budget and figure it out? And call for advice and.....? Judge Ramirez: I am still trying to figure the budget out. No. The first thing that I wanted to do was to get a County Auditor and they gave me hell for just trying to bring someone in that would help us to be more accountable. They opposed it until the very end. I did not get an auditor until June and we didn’t start working on the budget until the later part of June, early July, because I couldn’t get records. I couldn’t get the Treasurer to provide me with information. If I would go to the office, it was, I would have to put up a fight for anything that I wanted to do in this county. Dr. Gutiérrez: Isn’t the budget part of the minutes in the County Clerk’s office? And the clerk wouldn’t provide you copies of official minutes and records? Judge Ramirez: No, I, I had a copy of the budget, but it is just so extensive and we had to work with over-projections done by the prior administration. Too much spending. No control. When I came in, people would order things, and then get a P. O. And after it was paid, then it would be approved. If I start from the very beginning, I will never finish because everything was not being done properly. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did they cut your salary? Judge Ramirez: No they didn’t and, but if they hear about it, they just may. I don’t think they know that they could. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, at the beginning you said the County Judge’s salary was thirty one thousand and then you get something else for the Juvenile Board, was there any movement on the part of the Commissioners to move around those salaries? Or are you making now what the other judge was making? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, then there is a cut in salary? Judge Ramirez: By choice. Can you believe that? Dr. Gutiérrez: Explain this. Explain it. Judge Ramirez: Well, the prior administration was paid thirty one thousand plus seventy five hundred, which is the maximum that you can get from serving on the Juvenile Board. I never knew that the judge was getting paid. I was overwhelmed with work, with trying to deal with my own personnel here, with trying to straighten out things to make sure that we were adhering to county policies, especially with the P. O.s, looking at what we had with the budget. I just didn’t have the time to be the auditor, to be the judge, to be the secretary, to type the, the agendas. I was overwhelmed, too much work, and just being there by myself. But it was not until I got the auditor that we started getting all these figures. I needed help but it was just too much work and that is when, you know, we started working with the budget and we had like over five hundred thousand dollars in over-projections. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where does the county have it’s money deposited? Judge Ramirez: We have it with Zapata National Bank. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that local owned? Judge Ramirez: Locally owned. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are those Mexican-Americans or Anglos that own the bank? Judge Ramirez: Well, Mexican-Americans. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are they supporters or were they on the other side? Judge Ramirez: Supporters. Supporters. Dr. Gutiérrez: So you chose to put less than seventy five hundred dollars in the budget when you got around to doing it or did you get seventy five hundred dollars automatically beginning January 1st.? Judge Ramirez: Oh, no. Of course not. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, your salary was cut? Judge Ramirez: Yes, my salary was cut because I didn’t know any better. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, but the salary continues from the Treasurer all the way through. That is who prepares the checks. They issue them regularly, so that person made a choice not to include that part in your salary package? Judge Ramirez: No. If I am not mistaken, they just left it out and I guess later on, they would make a budget amendment if the other judge came into office. They didn’t budget the seventy five hundred. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I will get copies of the minutes and figure all this out. Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: How about a car allowance or Road and Bridge fund? Did you get CDBG funds? Are there any allocations there for the County Judge or any that you know? Judge Ramirez: Yes, for the County Judge, not for a District County Judge.. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you get a car allowance? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Does the Commissioner get a car allowance? Judge Ramirez: Well, they get a car from the county. Dr. Gutiérrez: An automobile, completely? Judge Ramirez: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the county pays for everything associated with the automobile? Judge Ramirez: Gasoline, everything. Dr. Gutiérrez: How much do they make? Judge Ramirez: Twenty five thousand and then some. Dr. Gutiérrez: Maybe I will retire and see if I can’t get elected Commissioner in Zapata County. What is the "and then some." What is that? Judge Ramirez: Well, you know, there are some things that we are looking into, such as some county trucks being used by one or two Commissioners that go fill up at the county shop, like at midnight, things like that. So, another common practice that we have been seeing and of course, this practice has almost totally stopped since we took office, they will request a P. O., some Commissioners, to go get estimates on equipment or things that they may need. However, we have the purchasing agent that does that and has estimates on file, but not only are they going to go get the estimates, they also go like to Schillertbaun [resort near San Antonio/New Braunfels] or on vacation, so our taxpayers end up paying for the mileage, for the hotel, and for meals. It happened once at the very beginning when I came in and it is a battle. It is a battle. Everything we do here, we must fight for. And I thought that doing the right thing would come easy. It doesn’t, especially when things have been done wrong for a long time. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you have a County Administrator or a Road Supervisor? Who runs the Road and Bridge department? Judge Ramirez: Basically the Commissioners. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you have a Road and Bridge department? Judge Ramirez: Yes, we do. Dr. Gutiérrez: You have never voted on a Road Administrator? Judge Ramirez: What we have is what we call a County Shop supervisor, but I think that we need changes in that department. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you ever attended the seminars for County Judges and county government officials? There are several. There is South Texas Judge’s Association and there is an annual seminar, I think, in February at Texas A & M University in Bryan, and then there is a Judiciary conference in Austin, I think, every year for County Judges. Have you attended all of that? Judge Ramirez: I have been to some, not all. We have been just so busy. The first year I attended every seminar that I could because I was just getting, well, I wanted to be more informed about what we could, where we could seek help. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you made friends with other County Judges or other women County Judges? I mean, you are the only Mexican-American woman, so there is nobody else there, but there are other women there. There are a couple of other County Judges, females. Cindy Crier in Bexar County is a female County Judge. Judge Ramirez: We don’t keep in touch. The only time is when we see ourselves at the seminar and I think that one of the female County Judges was going to form, like a support group, because we all go through the same problems, basically. Dr. Gutiérrez: What are those? Judge Ramirez: Well, Commissioners not supporting ideas, suggestions that you may have, even though you have it very well documented. I, for instance, had one Commissioner coming in at one point and that has changed already, but he comes in and he says, "Well, you know, we are wanting to get some, you know, Certificates of Obligation, but I am just going to go ahead and talk to the former County Judge because he has more experience." You know, that type? And just getting a difficult time at Commissioner’s Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that young boy still on the Commissioner’s Court? Judge Ramirez: He just got elected. I can’t say re-elected because he was appointed. He just got elected. Dr. Gutiérrez: On his own? Judge Ramirez: He ran against an accountant, but you see, these people learn politics quick, how it works and I think he won, by like, seventy votes. Dr. Gutiérrez: What precinct was that? Judge Ramirez: Um, three. It is really incredible. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the other Commissioner? Did anybody run for that or is that, which Commissioner do you have now and what side are they on? Judge Ramirez: Well, I think I still have majority on some issues. Thank God for that. But Commissioners generally, I shouldn’t say Commissioners, some Commissioners in Zapata County will generally flip-flop and so you never have a secure vote. They are swing votes. They all are swing votes. I cannot say that there is one that will back me up every time. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, how do you go about getting two of the votes when you want something? How do you do it? What do you do? Judge Ramirez: One of them is a school teacher. I can talk to him and he understands; and I don’t really have problems with him. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is his name? Judge Ramirez: Uh, Angel Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: Precinct? Judge Ramirez: Precinct 2. He has been a Commissioner, I think he is going on his third term. And then there is another one that was elected when I was. He is a new Commissioner, Amado Bustamante. Dr. Gutiérrez: Precinct? Judge Ramirez: Number 4. The other two I can never count on. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is he the one that defeated your dad or is he a different person? Judge Ramirez: No, he is a different person. He defeated the one that defeated my dad. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Do you call them on the phone; do you go for breakfast; do you have coffee; do you have lunch; do you visit at their homes; do they visit at your home? How do you get the lobbying; how do you talk to them? Judge Ramirez: We visit here in the office. Dr. Gutiérrez: This office where we are sitting? Judge Ramirez: Uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: You sit there and they sit here? Judge Ramirez: Yes, and sometimes I feel very uncomfortable sitting here, because we really can’t be friends. You know, there is, it is hard to work with men when you are in the public eye and you live in a small community. Dr. Gutiérrez: What does that mean? Judge Ramirez: Meaning that actions, meetings can be misconstrued. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you talking about gender now? That you can’t go to a bar; you can’t go to the Pizza Hut; you can’t go hunting? Judge Ramirez: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: You can’t go fishing; you can’t go to San Antonio together; you can’t go to meetings together; conferences? Judge Ramirez: You know, for instance... Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that what you are saying? Judge Ramirez: Yes. For instance, this is very interesting. They hold, like an annual gathering for County Judges in Laredo. I think it is at Mercurio’s Ranch or somewhere, that County Judge up there [Webb County]. Do you know that I have never gotten an invitation? It is only men that attend that gathering. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you called the judge over there? Judge Ramirez: Uh, No. I spoke to John Sharp, because he is invited every year, and he said, "I am going to bring this up because it is not right." And I said, "All I am asking for," and it is a group of people that organize it, "all I am asking for is send me an invitation. I am not going to go crash your party yet, but send me an invitation. I am a county official too." So, those are the things that make it difficult, you know, in being a woman. If I get in a car with a Commissioner, and we go to a restaurant to have coffee or whatever, people, local people can misconstrue that as some other type of meeting instead of a business, professional meeting. Although it is really not a problem, it may have been at the beginning, but people know you and what I try to do anytime that I go to a meeting or anywhere, I take the auditor with me or my secretary or.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, but the auditor is male? Judge Ramirez: ....someone. Well, that is true. Dr. Gutiérrez: Manuel Garza was his name? Judge Ramirez: Theo Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: Theodoro or Teodulo? Judge Ramirez: Theodoro. But he is very down to earth. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, he is still a male though, so.... Judge Ramirez: Yeah. It is not that much of an issue. I personally just would not feel comfortable going hunting with one of the Commissioners. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you hunt? Judge Ramirez: I fish. No, I don’t hunt. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you play golf? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: How would your husband feel about this? Is there any problem there on the same misconstruction? Judge Ramirez: He has learned to deal with it. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, there is a problem. Judge Ramirez: There was a problem. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you both talk about this? Judge Ramirez: I have a job to do. And I am very professional when it comes to county business. And, so there is a choice, to either accept it or not accept it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you gone to conferences where the Commissioners are also there and have you tried to visit there, away from here? Judge Ramirez: No, actually I have only been to one conference where the Commissioners were there. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, have you read books? Have you tried to read about the duties of the County Judge? I am fascinated with the self-study here. How did you learn to be a County Judge? Now, let’s talk about your first Courtroom appearance and then we will talk about your first Court Commissioner’s Court meeting or whatever, your Juvenile Board meeting, your firsts. Take your pick. Do you want to be judge, judge, you want to be Commissioner, executive, you want to be Juvenile Board, what do you want to talk about? Judge Ramirez: Well, number one, I am still learning and the best way to learn is to just do it yourself. I figured that there was a book that would teach me about how to interpret the language in the budget, how to save money, how to handle Court proceedings, how to generally be a judge. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is there such a book? Judge Ramirez: No there isn’t. There isn’t. So, whenever I am going to prepare, well, for instance, County Court. We have cases that go back years and years that have never been disposed of. Some of the defendants have already, well, they are deceased.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Why don’t you just dismiss them? Judge Ramirez: ....we are planning on doing that. But there is just so many. We, the former County Judge would hold county Court maybe three times a year. We hold it on a monthly basis. And a lot of them made deals with this judge, that I understand that we have everything documented. They would call and say, "Well, he promised me this, you know. Is it because he is not here any longer that it is not going to hold now?" And we say, "You are right." We are very hard with DWIs. They are going down. To our surprise, the day that they get the ticket, they call this office to make sure that they don’t miss the Court date, because we do have them arrested. I feel that it is a very big responsibility when you are dealing with DWIs. Although they are all misdemeanors, what we get in Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: What do you give as a sentence for the first time? Judge Ramirez: Well, for the first time, well, it, probably, it is on a case-by-case basis. More, most of the time, they can get probation. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is the fine? Judge Ramirez: The fine is, what is the fine? Dr. Gutiérrez: What would you normally assess? Judge Ramirez: Total. All the Court costs and for the Crime Stoppers fee and all of that, you are looking at about maybe six hundred, seven hundred dollars. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you give jail time the first time around? Judge Ramirez: Uh, not necessarily. Dr. Gutiérrez: Not even a weekend? Judge Ramirez: Well, Dr. Gutiérrez: Not twenty four hours? Judge Ramirez: Not, it depends on the case. We have given jail time to some that cannot pay the fee. We will give them work release. One thing that we want to start working on is giving more community work because there is a lot of work that we can do out here and I understand that there was a law that was passed where now, well, where it deals with the liability issue, because we don’t have enough people working for the county and if we give community service, you know, we need a lot of things that need to be done, like painting a building, maybe even picking up the trash, things like that. But since you are talking about having them work outside, we have to be very careful that there is someone that is there to supervise them. Dr. Gutiérrez: How do you get along with the Sheriff? Judge Ramirez: Uh, fine. Could be better. There has been no communication since January. No communication at all. Dr. Gutiérrez: So the first two years of your position, you have not had dealings with him? Did something happen here that he hasn’t communicated with you in the last six, seven months now? Judge Ramirez: Well, that is what I am trying to find out. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, the first Court that you had, the County Attorney doesn’t like you, the Sheriff, maybe, maybe not, the County Clerk doesn’t necessarily get along with you, these are people that have to help you do the Court. The Sheriff provides your Bailiff, order in the Court, the County Attorney has to prosecute the cases, the County Clerk has got to supply you with the people that can do the ministerial duties of your office. What happened to you the first few days you held Court? Judge Ramirez: To my surprise, there was a lot of respect and quietness in the Courtroom. I like to do things as professional as I can and so I borrowed the District Judge’s robe to conduct my County Court hearings. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that where the courtroom.... the one that you use? Judge Ramirez: Right across, right across. We have the Commissioner’s Court and then we have the District Court right across the hallway. And, so.... Dr. Gutiérrez: But I mean, there is only one courtroom? You both share the same courtroom? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: There are two courtrooms? Judge Ramirez: I use the Commissioner’s Court room. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Maybe you will show me later. Judge Ramirez: I will. And so we walk in and they know that I mean business, so there was no jacking me around in my courtroom. It has been pretty smooth. I can’t complain about that. They have been pretty good. Dr. Gutiérrez: How about the law itself? You have lawyers in front of you now, they are licensed, they have, at least experience that you don’t have. How do you feel about that? Judge Ramirez: Well, I am thrilled anytime that an attorney walks into the Courtroom because there is a lot that you can learn. However, most of the cases, that have come in where there has been an attorney representing them, which is not that many. Most of them plea out. I have had maybe two or three different attorneys come into the Courtroom. Dr. Gutiérrez: Don’t you have to appoint an attorney here for those who want to plea? Judge Ramirez: Well, they have the right, but sometimes they choose not to exercise that right and they just plea out. They are all misdemeanors, not much to it, but we follow the law the way that it should be. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you had any trials where you had a jury and opposing attorneys and you have got Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Not one? Judge Ramirez: And as a matter of fact, we are getting ready to hold the first trial ever in county. Dr. Gutiérrez: When is it going to be. Would you explain that? Judge Ramirez: Yes. The case has been on file for over five years. It is an assault case that, let’s say because of the politics or whatever you may want to call it, it was never disposed of. And, so here I have the victim saying, "Hey, you have never done anything with my case." And I said, "Well, just a minute," you know, "I just came in, but let’s set it up for trial." And it has been postponed three times. One because we didn't have enough jurors coming in since we have never had a trial in County Court. We may have had maybe like five people showing up out of two hundred and some that were summoned. And... Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you, uh, send anybody to be arrested? Judge Ramirez: Not yet. The second time, I think one of the attorneys filed a motion for continuance, one of the defendant’s attorneys. And then the third time, the defendant, oh, the victim was not present. And so, this judge is not too happy about that because we did get some jurors that came in and what we want to do is to make them have faith in us. That if we call them, we realize that they are going to miss out on going to work and that we have work to do and especially we want them to know how important it is to serve in the jury. And so, hopefully we will be setting up that case for maybe August again. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you ever sent anybody to jail? Judge Ramirez: Well, only those that failed to appear for their Court dates and I think at one point, we may have had about a dozen in jail. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, as far as sentence you haven’t sent anybody to jail? Judge Ramirez: No, uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: Child support? Delinquencies? Judge Ramirez: We don’t deal with that. The, we have the, we have another judge that comes in from out of town that deals with child support. A magistrate of, what is her name? I can’t think of her name right now. Dr. Gutiérrez: It’s a female? Judge Ramirez: A female. Dr. Gutiérrez: You get along with her? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: She comes from where? Judge Ramirez: From San Antonio. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you contract for that service or does the county pay for that? Judge Ramirez: Uh, you know, I don’t know. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. All right, so first Commissioner’s Court meeting then. Remember that? Was that on January 1st or did you have one later? Judge Ramirez: No, I think I have drawn a blank on my first Commissioner’s Court meeting. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you meet on the first and third Monday of every month, no? Judge Ramirez: We meet only once a month and... Dr. Gutiérrez: First or the third Monday? Judge Ramirez: The first. Dr. Gutiérrez: First Monday? Judge Ramirez: We will call a special meeting if need be. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, the first meeting you remember, what happened? Judge Ramirez: I remember the second one. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Judge Ramirez: The first meeting was moved. Nobody would say anything; nobody would talk; you could hear a pin drop. The second meeting, Jesus Christ, I had some problems with the nutrition director who was very much involved with the County Judge that was here at that time. And I wanted to move her back to my budget, so that I could have a little bit more control or know about what was going on with the nutrition center because they would not give me reports; they would not communicate with me. And that is a very important service that we have for the community. So, basically what we were doing was transferring her, along with my staff, back to the County Judge’s budget where they were and should be. Well, at that point, one of the Commissioners, Flores, Commissioner Flores, and the nutrition director, and some other people, they went to the nutrition center and told all the elderly people there that I had put her on the agenda because I was going to terminate the service. So, can you imagine what happened at that meeting? Dr. Gutiérrez: You had a different crowd there. Judge Ramirez: A different crowd and all attacking me without knowing what was the item on the agenda. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you mean speaking out of turn or just outright.... what? Judge Ramirez: No. I did not allow them to speak and they made a big issue about it on the paper. Since then we have a communications item on the agenda so we do allow everyone to come and voice their opinion, but at the time, I didn’t know what to do. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did the Sheriff provide you with a deputy or you... Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: ....you had to control it yourself? Judge Ramirez: I had to control it myself. You know, the Commissioners would not say anything because it is political. I mean, you are dealing with the elderly and everything, you know, everything was twisted around. So, they came in extremely mad. One of them started being a bit disrespectful to the Court, at which point I said, "Ma’am if you are not on the agenda, we cannot entertain your concerns, but feel free to go to my office and I will speak to you and provide you with any information that you need." And at that point, Dr. Gutiérrez: Were you speaking English or Spanish? Judge Ramirez: English. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you ever spoken Spanish to make yourself understood to the people? Judge Ramirez: Oh sure, sure. But at that point, it was Anglos mainly. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Judge Ramirez: At that point, Commissioner Flores started blurting out, "Oh, all you are wanting to do is to get her on your budget so you can fire her." And he made this horrible remark. That is when he shot the finger. That is when he did what he wanted to do. Since then, it has been under control. He knows that I can have him arrested or thinks that I can have him arrested. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you told him? Judge Ramirez: No, he will not speak to me. He does not speak to me. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, how does he know you are going to have him arrested? Judge Ramirez: Because others take the time to let him know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you tell these others to tell him? Judge Ramirez: No. But they will tell him. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: And anything you say will always be carried over. Dr. Gutiérrez: So these first agendas that you are preparing and posting, you did it by yourself or did they call you and tell you they want to have something on the agenda or do you call them? How do you prepare the agenda? Judge Ramirez: Well, what we do, like I said before, there is two Commissioners that they will not speak to me. But what I will do, every now and then, I will talk to those Commissioners that do and I will tell them the agenda is coming up. If you have anything, you know, bring it in. r if we call a special meeting, we let them know immediately. Because we have a deadline, the Wednesday before the Monday meeting at noon is the deadline because if not, there is, is just too many items that come up and we don't have the time to be changing things. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you have to post it also. Judge Ramirez: And we have to post it. Dr. Gutiérrez: What emergency meetings have you had? What has been the issue? Judge Ramirez: To tell you the truth, since I have come into office, we have not had any controversial issues, emergency meetings that we have had are on contracts that need to be signed for projects or things like that, that require a deadline. But nothing that is extremely urgent. Dr. Gutiérrez: Taxes. Have you enough money to operate the county? You said there was five hundred thousand over-charges or over budget. Have you been able to get the budget under control or do you owe money? Have you had to raise taxes? What is the financial picture that you have had to deal with? Judge Ramirez: We had to raise taxes the first year, two or three cents; and it was mostly because of the over-projections that they made. On one particular one, they projected that the Sheriff’s department, the jail was going to bring in three hundred thousand dollars. Out of those three hundred thousand dollars, maybe ten came in. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ten thousand? Judge Ramirez: Ten thousand. So, can you imagine? They had over-projections in most of the departments, so Dr. Gutiérrez: Excuse me. Was the sheriff’s department before jailing and holding INS detainees, undocumented people, and getting paid from the Feds? Judge Ramirez: No, we just started contracting with the federal government... Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, how did they make Judge Ramirez: ....not too long ago. Dr. Gutiérrez: that projection? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know. I don’t know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you ask the Sheriff? Judge Ramirez: The Sheriff was not around. The current Sheriff was not in office. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, this is a new Sheriff? Judge Ramirez: Right. This was with the former... Dr. Gutiérrez: Right. Judge Ramirez: ....administrators. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you, do you ask these different departments to supply you with what they want in their budget, to prepare their own budget, then you review it, or how does it work? Judge Ramirez: What we do is, is that we, like we just sent out letters with copies of their budgets with blank lines for them to fill in. What it is that they anticipate they will need and then we start meeting with them informally. We have them come into the office and we review how much they spent and what it is that they expect to spend on the next budget. So, we give them an opportunity. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many people voted with you on that two, three cent increase? Judge Ramirez: With the Commissioners? I, if I am not mistaken, three, two, including myself. We didn't have a choice. Two of them had been in agreement when the auditor spoke to them because they will not meet with me and then once we got there, they changed their minds, so that they wouldn’t look like the bad guys. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that the way that they positioned themselves in the media? Judge Ramirez: Um, basically, I don’t recall exactly what was the excuse, but there was something that they didn’t like in the budget, such as maybe we didn’t approve a position or we didn’t approve enough moneys on one particular department. And I think that was....they never give a reasoning for their objections. It is just, No or we don’t like it. Dr. Gutiérrez: When you talk about the newspapers, which newspapers cover Zapata County? Judge Ramirez: Now, we only have one. The other one was run out of town because she reported the news the way that they should be. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was that? Judge Ramirez: Maria Eugenia Guerra. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah, but what was the name of the paper? Judge Ramirez: Uh, the Zapata, gee, I think the Zapata Express, Weekly Express. Zapata Weekly Express. Dr. Gutiérrez: And how long has she been gone? Judge Ramirez: Even before I started my campaign. Dr. Gutiérrez: And what is the other paper? Judge Ramirez: The Zapata County News. Dr. Gutiérrez: And then the Valley Monitor. I, I tried to find a newspaper this morning and I only saw the Monitor. Is that from the Valley, the Valley? Judge Ramirez: From the Valley. Dr. Gutiérrez: Monitor? Judge Ramirez: But they don’t report on, on Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, the local, the local paper is Zapata News? Judge Ramirez: That is correct. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that a daily or a weekly? Judge Ramirez: It is a weekly. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who owns it? Judge Ramirez: Bob and Kate McVeigh. Dr. Gutiérrez: Anglos? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Locals? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Regular winter tourists? Judge Ramirez: No, I think, well McVeigh moved in maybe about ten years ago or so, from Laredo, and his wife is from Austin or somewhere around there. Dr. Gutiérrez: And how do they treat you? Judge Ramirez: They are totally against the administration. And they were the people that punished me the hardest during our campaigning; and it all goes back, I guess it ties in with my father. At one point, they were accusing my father of stealing water. You see, they thought that he was going to be running again for the Commissioner’s position. So what they do is that they try to get something on you before you even file so that you don’t. And basically what had happened in that situation was that my father has some acreage and one particular one he had to hand over to the bank or sold to the bank or I don’t know what the situation was there, and there was a water meter there which he was not responsible for. But they made a story out of it. And nothing ever came out of it. Dr. Gutiérrez: When was this? Judge Ramirez: Uh, maybe about three years ago. And my father sued them and I guess that is where it comes from. They were very.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you dad lose this land because of financing the campaign and the lawsuits? Judge Ramirez: No, no. No, this was something else. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: Probably to pay for our education. I don’t know. I don’t know, but it, it Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you said three years ago. That is, that is recent. That is when you were running. Judge Ramirez: Maybe four years ago. I tend to lose track of time. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, he sued them and what was the result? Judge Ramirez: Not a good one. The judge granted a summary judgment in the defendant’s favor and basically the main issue there was the "public figure." Dr. Gutiérrez: This was Judge Flores? Judge Ramirez: No. I think it was a visiting judge. I can’t recall the name. But because he had always been in the public eye and he was a member of the, of the water plant board, they decided that they could say anything about him and they couldn’t prove the maliciousness part. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, meetings that, that you recall, that stand out in your mind, either at the Commissioner’s Court or the courtroom. You seem to say that the courtroom has been smooth and fine. Judge Ramirez: So far, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: No bad experience, no real good experience? Anything that stands out in your mind about being a judge, judge? Judge Ramirez: No. No, it has been smooth except for that experience that I was talking about. Dr. Gutiérrez: That is in the Commissioner’s Court? Judge Ramirez: In the Commissioner’s Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: Anything else that has happened in the Commissioner’s Court that makes you take a second look? Judge Ramirez: Well, you see, what bothers me is this; that by the time we go to the Commissioner’s Court, minds are made up, which should not be the case. We are there to discuss and to come to an intelligent decision together. So we never have any friction, you know, because by the time we get there, I would imagine, they have already made arrangements within themselves, and there is nothing that I can do. Dr. Gutiérrez: That is a violation. That is, they are meeting, if they are meeting, that is a violation of Open Meetings law. Judge Ramirez: Of course it is. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do they get their copies of the agenda from the County Clerk or do they come pick it up from your office? Judge Ramirez: We send them. Well, they come pick it up. They are very good. Two of the Commissioners are excellent about coming to pick up their copy and keeping up with what the agenda will support. The other two started saying that we would not send them to them, so now I have a deputy that delivers the agenda to them in person. Because we are here about working together, about providing them with information beforehand so that they can study it and make an informed decision in the Commissioner’s Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: What has happened in the Commissioner’s Court that, that... has it gotten better or has it gotten worse? Judge Ramirez: Well, I think that it is better because we now give the public an opportunity to come voice their concerns. Before the position of the administration there was, this is my court room, you do what I tell you to do; and so now it is a little bit more lax. We listen to people’s concerns and we try to do something about it. Dr. Gutiérrez: The County Judge also is the election officer. You ran your first elections last time. What did you learn? How did you learn how to do it? What happened this time around? Judge Ramirez: Well, basically the way that things have been run, the Clerk’s office manages just about the whole thing. Where I see that we have a part is in appointing the Election Judges and that brought a little bit of heat this last time that we appointed the Election Judges, but I had majority that supported me. Basically one of the Commissioners that was reelected, Flores, was up on the ballot and he had his secretary being the Election Judge. She has been election judge for years and I said, no, you know, there is, there is a conflict. A clear conflict here and so I suggested that they name somebody else and I got the support for that. Dr. Gutiérrez: How about the polling places? Judge Ramirez: Polling places..., Dr. Gutiérrez: They are the same? Judge Ramirez: ....after my elections, elections are boring around here; everything has more or less toned down. During my election, when Morales was running, during the Early Voting, they sent out like, mobile units which were not needed. It cost the taxpayers almost four thousand dollars and two people voted in the different units that they had. But it, number one it was done to provide jobs, you know, to some people and number two, I actually think that they intended to bring in people, but they just weren’t able to push them. Dr. Gutiérrez: You said that you now have a new voting machine or method. Was that your idea or how did this come about? Judge Ramirez: No, it is something that had already been in place because normally it would take five, six hours longer to get election results and then finally Commissioner’s Court approved for the expenditure to get this new voting machine. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many people vote in Zapata County? What is the range? Judge Ramirez: In my election, they don’t always come out to vote, but in our election, I think we have about, let’s say almost, a little over five thousand registered voters and in our election, we must have had like, close to four thousand. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is the population of the county? Judge Ramirez: The last Federal census shows that it is ten thousand, but I think it has gone up to about twelve.... Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: ....twelve thousand. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Juvenile Court. Anything happening there? Judge Ramirez: No. I expected for the board to be a little bit more active, but we only meet maybe on a quarterly basis. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is on the board? Judge Ramirez: The District Judge and then there is other members that have been appointed, like the principal. We try to get a good representation from the community. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do they all get paid? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Just you and the District Judge? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. Dr. Gutiérrez: How much does the District Judge get paid for that? Judge Ramirez: You know, and I don’t even know if the District Judge collects. I am not sure what he gets paid. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many employees do you have in the Road and Bridge department? Judge Ramirez: Many. Um, each Commissioner must have, and this is a rough figure, I am not even sure that it is the accurate figure. Maybe about fifteen to twenty employees. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you ever been out to the precinct shops and the actual main county shop yourself? Judge Ramirez: I have been to some. Well, I have been there occasionally. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did you go do? Judge Ramirez: Talk to the employees. Find out if they are being treated well; if there is anything that they need. What I am finding hard to do is making time for myself to do that because once I come into the office, I don’t get out anymore. I don’t go to lunch. I don’t have time for anything. Dr. Gutiérrez: When you went out there to visit occasionally, did you go dressed in a business suit or pants and boots or how did, how did you look? Judge Ramirez: I think I was wearing a pant suit. Dr. Gutiérrez: Was it a called meeting? Did they know you were coming or did you just show up? Judge Ramirez: No. You know, like, sometimes I will see some of the county shop employees, for example, working here at the museum. They were painting and making a driveway. I don’t know what else and I just stopped by to say hello and small talk. They don’t really want to open up to me and they won’t look at me in the face and it is real hard. It makes it real uncomfortable, for whatever reason. You know, some... Dr. Gutiérrez: Why do you think that is? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know. Um, I guess they have never had a woman County Judge or Commissioner so maybe it is not easy for them to respond to a female authority. I don’t know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who pays? Delivers the paycheck? Judge Ramirez: Well, they are delivered to the different department heads and... Dr. Gutiérrez: By whom? Judge Ramirez: By the Treasurer’s office and then the department heads will disperse the checks. Dr. Gutiérrez: You have several hats as County Judge. You have the Road and Bridge, the actual staff you have here outside the door, elections, you are the chief budget officer, you are on the Juvenile Board, you are the judge judge, and you are the chief executive and chief legislator as part of the group. I mean, that is a lot of responsibilities. Which one do you enjoy the most? Judge Ramirez: I enjoy all of them. I love my job; although there is a lot of hard knocks on a daily basis. I love my job. I love talking to the people, helping them out, especially the needy ones, but the part that I enjoy the most is the judicial part of it. I think that County Court is a lot of fun and you learn something new everyday and that is the part that I enjoy the most. Dr. Gutiérrez: This is just a little curiosity. Outside the door, the name is spelled Villareal - Ramirez. Behind you it just says Norma V. Ramirez and your business card has all the names. It says Norma Villareal Ramirez, no hyphen. What is the name that you prefer and it is interesting that you have your maiden and married name? Judge Ramirez: I prefer Villareal. No, basically, this one says only Norma V. Ramirez because that was given by a supporter, so I guess they couldn’t fit in the Villareal. But I think that, you know, in our culture, it is very important for us to never let go of your maiden name, where you came from. Dr. Gutiérrez: How does your husband feel about this? Judge Ramirez: No complaints so far and basically I use Villareal Ramirez because the community did not know me as Norma Ramirez. When I left town, I left single and I came back married, so it was like, who is Norma Ramirez? We, we don’t know who she is. So, that is why I also used Villareal. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is a typical day like? Judge Ramirez: A typical day? Dr. Gutiérrez: What time do you get up? Judge Ramirez: Six. When we have school, I have to get up earlier to get the kids dressed. Dr. Gutiérrez: What time? Judge Ramirez: Maybe like around five thirty or so, and I usually come in between eight and eight thirty. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you have already lost three hours right there. Three and a half hours. Judge Ramirez: Well, you want me to tell you everything? Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you started to, you start saying get the kids ready that you, do you fix breakfast, you shower, then you dress them? I mean, what, what goes on in your household? Judge Ramirez: I start with myself first. Get the rollers on, all that stuff and then start... I don’t wake up the children until about seven o’clock, because by that time most of the time... I bathe them at night, and so I get them dressed in maybe fifteen, twenty minutes. At this stage in their life, they are not too particular about how you do their hair or what clothes you put on them. Sometimes they will eat a quick breakfast.... Dr. Gutiérrez: What does that mean? Judge Ramirez: Well, Dr. Gutiérrez: Microwave oatmeal or cold, cold cereal? Judge Ramirez: No, actually, Grandma’s cooking. You see, my mother has this tradition where I really don’t have to make breakfast because my mom invites all her children to come for breakfast every morning. We, we are trying to tell her, don’t get up so early in the morning. There is no need. Relax, enjoy your years. Dr. Gutiérrez: There is a lot of you, with husbands and children. Judge Ramirez: Well, the husbands are not a part of that scheme because my husband leaves very early in the morning, so he is not around.... Dr. Gutiérrez: What time does he leave? Judge Ramirez: Well, he works in Laredo, so he commutes everyday. So, depending on what it is that he needs to do, he will leave like, around five, sometimes he leaves at four thirty. You know, he is out a lot of the time. So, my mother has this tradition that she wants us to have breakfast because at least she gets to see all of us, once. She sees us all day anyhow, but that, that is how she wants it. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, then off to daycare or in your case, they don’t go to school yet, no, los dos (the two).. Judge Ramirez: They do. Javy is, will be in the second grade and Angela will be in kinder. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, then you get here at what time? Judge Ramirez: So, I get here, let’s say, maybe around eight ten, eight fifteen. You have a list of messages and you have people waiting for you out there. Dr. Gutiérrez: I noticed that you didn’t come in the door I came in. You came in out of somewhere. Judge Ramirez: Through the back door. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that, it that what you do? You park somewhere else and you come through the back door? Judge Ramirez: Well, I park on the side and you know, sometimes it is just easier to come in through the back and sometimes we, if you have other people waiting out there, they will never, you won’t have the time to come in and start with your appointments or phone calls or whatever. The hardest part is keeping up with the extra-curricular activities. You are a main speaker at any event, any time. So, for example, yesterday we had the Fourth of July celebration and prior to that, Zapata County is holding the Little League All-Star Tournament, so you have to help them set up for that. Make sure the Sheriff’s department will block the roads so that there is better safety, that there is a deputy that is patrolling the area. You have to go give a welcome speech, then we rush off to the auditors in Laredo to review the auditor’s report; start preparing for next year’s budget. You get back, you have two welcome speeches that you have to give the next morning; come out in a parade; the kids are in the background wanting you to go get fireworks; you need to go cook the fajitas (beef skirt steak); start making the potato salad; bake them at night, you know, before you go to sleep. It’s time consuming. But those extra curricular activities are so important because it gives you an opportunity to speak to the people. Dr. Gutiérrez: What do you tell them? Judge Ramirez: Well, actually they tell you things. You know, they will come up and say, well, you know, we are concerned about this or my son needs a job or nice speech you gave or you know, it is just a variety of things. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is it a problem here that you have more people looking for jobs than you have jobs available? Judge Ramirez: A very big problem. Dr. Gutiérrez: How do you deal with that? Judge Ramirez: Well, we are hoping to maybe attract some kind of a company to come in. But it is just, at this point, it is just real difficult. We have a community center that is going to be built by next March and the ground breaking ceremonies will be in September, so that part of the contract is asking them to hire locals for that. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where did the money come... Judge Ramirez: ....project. Dr. Gutiérrez: ....from for that? Judge Ramirez: We had half of it that was a grant, it is going to be a million dollar community center and it is going to be housing different offices for social services and that was the basis for getting the grant. And the county had to come up with a cash match of about five hundred thousand. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you also involved with the regional council of governments? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: And what does that require you to do? Judge Ramirez: Well, there is monthly meetings, you know, that are discussed, especially like with the STDC; grants that come up, are discussed there and we try to allocate them within the surrounding counties. I think there is four or five of us that participate. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is it out of Laredo or out of the Valley? Judge Ramirez: It is out of Laredo. Dr. Gutiérrez: STDC, South Texas Development Council? Judge Ramirez: Uh hmm. Dr. Gutiérrez: You hold any office there? Judge Ramirez: No. No, I don’t. Dr. Gutiérrez: How do you get along with, relationships with the city officials or the school officials? Judge Ramirez: Well, we don’t have city officials because Zapata is not incorporated. As far as the officials with the school board, we try to include them in a lot of our activities. The superintendent responds well; the school board majority of members do not, and again, because you are looking at the same political faction that has been controlling Zapata for a while. So, they don’t like the new administration. We have too much more..... Dr. Gutiérrez: I was not aware that the city of Zapata, there is no city of Zapata? Judge Ramirez: No city. Dr. Gutiérrez: It is open zoning? Anybody can set up any business they want and set up any kind of drainage system they want? Judge Ramirez: Well, basically yes. Every now and then, Commissioner’s Court will adopt a policy or a resolution, and it will have to go through Commissioner’s Court, you know, like to get the permits to open up a new business. We have a, a health and safety specialist that gets part of the permits approved and but basically, we have no zoning ordinances and I think that we do need them in place. Dr. Gutiérrez: How do the streets get paved or sidewalks or sewers? Is it that you have sewers, do you have septic tanks? Judge Ramirez: Well, now we have been very lucky to have gotten several grants that are now providing sewer and water improvements and facilities to most of our precincts. There was one, for example, and this is the one that has gotten the most in grant moneys. Precinct 4, they didn’t have any sewer, so, and their streets were not paved. I know that part of the moneys that they have used for their streets is from a road bond that had been passed a couple of years back. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do, does the county still receive lateral road fund moneys? Judge Ramirez: There is, yes, there is a, an item for that. Dr. Gutiérrez: Community development block grant moneys? Judge Ramirez: We receive some, yes, we do. Dr. Gutiérrez: Sales tax? Judge Ramirez: Sales tax. Well, no, I don’t know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is there organized opposition to incorporating the city? Judge Ramirez: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: No one has ever gotten around to it? Judge Ramirez: There has been some, you know, constituents that come up, well, like the newspaper, I think, would support incorporating Zapata. But that is as far as it has gone. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, am I detecting that you are getting tired of the interview or, or, or? Judge Ramirez: No. We can continue if you want to. Dr. Gutiérrez: What time is it? Judge Ramirez: It is ten after twelve. Dr. Gutiérrez: Wow. Don’t you eat lunch? Judge Ramirez: Ohhh, when we get the chance, yes, we do. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s just finish this little part for me then. How many people do you see here a day? How many people come through here and what do they ask for? Judge Ramirez: On the average, between thirty and forty would be the average, which gives me no time to return phone calls that very same day unless I return them after five o’clock. And problems, there are a wide variety of problems. Mostly we get a lot of indigent people that come in that need help, you know, to pay like, their light bills or they need to go see a doctor and they have no money for transportation. Some are complaining about the trash that is thrown on abandoned properties. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, who does trash pickup here? Judge Ramirez: The county does. Dr. Gutiérrez: And where do you take it? Judge Ramirez: We have a landfill and we may be encountering some problems with our landfill, fight. [door knock: Come in. She speaks with secretary.] Where are we going to start? [Lunch break.] Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I was just going to ask you about, you know, the, the, you are midway through your term. I mean, we did go to lunch and we are back here. We are going to wrap this up. We are going to cover now the last, you know, moments of being a County Judge. You have got two more years to go. You are about midterm. You have had a chance to make appointments; you have had a chance to make some programs happen; you know, you have got some ideas you, I think you kind of now know really what is going on. That assessment and then, then we will close up with more personal things about, you know, say Victor Morales, what do you think about him or who our more important leaders are? Who do you look to for leadership in this state and in the nation? Organizations that you belong to. Judge Ramirez: It is so hard. You know, you have caught me at a point in my life where I am very disappointed with the system. You see, I had a different idea of what it was about, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever contemplate or in addition that really, I mean, bottom line is if you have money or people in high places, that is how you are going to get things done. I, I am just real disappointed. County government is not what I thought it was. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you be more specific? I mean, I, we know that you don’t have money and I guess you mean you don’t have people in high places. Judge Ramirez: Well, you know, like for instance, there is things that I would like to get accomplished, but without the support of the Commissioners, I can’t do it. I want to reinforce the policies that we have within the county system. I can’t do it without their support or the support of the different department heads. Basically I cannot control unless I have their cooperation. And control for the betterment, not control for my own self. So, I am just quite disappointed, you know, like you can argue a point in Commissioner’s Court, you can have justification written. It is black and white and it is not going to sell unless you have something to bargain with and I hate that bargain for exchange. Dr. Gutiérrez: But that is just good politics. Or, or, or is there things going on that are illegal or, or under the table? Judge Ramirez: Well, no, not necessarily. I mean, it, it has all been, I guess I have to say within some control. You know, there is a lot of things that I don’t agree with, but I don’t have the majority to stop it. You know, like for instance, the purchasing is what gets, gets me the most. Commissioner’s Court approved, I think it, they went right under the fifteen thousand mark so that they don’t have to go through the biddings, although my personal feelings is that for anything that you purchase, get estimates, get bids, even if they are not required, just for purposes of accountability and documentation and so forth. Fueron con un mafioso a comprar trocas (they went to a mafioso to buy trucks) That the brakes are not good. One of them, the motor is falling apart and the exchange there was that the seller gave the water plant manager a freebie, a car for the daughter that is in college. You see, but now we have to dig it up and prove it, you know, and, but I don’t agree with that, you know. I mean, if you are going to purchase a vehicle, I would rather that you purchase a brand new, one brand new vehicle than two that don’t work. Alla entre ellos se arreglaron (between themselves they worked the deal) Their minds are made up. I am not going to make a dent in their decision making and sometimes it is not even feasible to go on the record, you know, because I will need them for other things. You know, you know what I mean? It is real hard. Bottom line is that I am not a politician nor do I aspire to be one because you just cannot be honest and you know, you can’t take care of the whole business on your, on your own. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is there some things that you can’t do because you are a woman? Judge Ramirez: No, I don’t think that it is, I don’t think the woman issue is playing that much of a, a part now. I don’t think it really did. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you go and sit down and talk to all the deputies? Or can you go to the road department and talk to all the work crew out there? Judge Ramirez: Yeah, yeah, I, I think so. You know, again no se (I don’t know), it is different, you know. Like I will see them joking with the Commissioners and you know, becoming closer to them and with con ellos si se puede (with them they can) because they are men, but I don’t know, maybe it is me that I am setting up the Barrier. I don’t think so because I think I am very down to earth, but then again, you know. So, I am just, I, you see, I came in with the belief or the thought that I was going to change everything around; that everything was going to be in order; that everybody was going to start following policy; that we would be more careful of the spending of our moneys; and it is not like that. No puedo hacer nada (I can’t do anything.) There is not much that I can do if I don’t have the support of the majority of the Commissioners. Dr. Gutiérrez: Have you started to campaign for re-election? Judge Ramirez: No, I haven’t. Dr. Gutiérrez: When are you going to start? Judge Ramirez: I don’t know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you going to run for reelection? Judge Ramirez: I am not sure. If there is still things that need to be done, I will. But I really don’t know what the future holds in store for me, to tell you the truth. Dr. Gutiérrez: Does your husband want you to run for re-election? Judge Ramirez: No, he doesn’t. Dr. Gutiérrez: How are things on the home front? Judge Ramirez: Uhh, I guess a little bit better, you know, I mean, there is, there is problems there. There are problems. Dr. Gutiérrez: Because of this? Judge Ramirez: Because of a lot of things, you know. I don’t think that any husband would take it lightly if you talk to someone in confidence about problems at home and then the whole town hears your conversation. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you referring to this video or did someone else tape you, like they did in Dallas with the school board member or what are you talking about? Judge Ramirez: I am talking about taped conversations on my personal home phone and office phone. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, that is illegal. Judge Ramirez: But it happens and there is nothing that I can do; yet, to stop it. And that is very frustrating. You are not recording me now? Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Judge Ramirez: Oh, you are? Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Judge Ramirez: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you object to that? Judge Ramirez: No. No, that is OK, but it is just frustrating to see that the system doesn’t always work. I mean, there is law enforcement agencies that know about the problem. They have not bothered to call me in over three months to let me know what is the status on their investigations. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you saying that the county attorney and the district attorney won’t prosecute cases that you point out to them that are illegal? Judge Ramirez: Well, as I understand the district attorney has no jurisdiction over the illegal wire tapping. It is a federal issue and so from the local angle, there is nothing that they can do to help out. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. What is the one thing that if you could fix in county government as County Judge, what it there that you would want to fix? Judge Ramirez: That is a hard question because I would probably change a big part of the system. Number one, I think it is important, if you are going to have good county government, it is important that you elect people that are conscientious about the work that they are going to be performing and I also feel that maybe they should limit the terms for these positions. I feel that some have served too long. They know the loopholes of the system and use it to their advantage. And after a while, lose interest in helping the community. They look up to helping themselves. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, what, what term limits do you suggest for Commissioners, for Sheriff, for Tax Assessor, for County Judge? Same one or different ones? Judge Ramirez: Well, that depends because sometimes it takes a while to learn the ropes, so I, right after your, you have just learned what being County Judge is all about, your term is up and you have to be re-elected, but I think that at least two to three terms and not more than that. Dr. Gutiérrez: For all offices or just the County Judge? Judge Ramirez: I would venture to say that maybe perhaps, for most of the offices. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, is there anything else? What would you say to someone, another young woman or young man who would come here on a high school project or college project saying: I want to be a County Judge? What would you tell them? Judge Ramirez: What would I tell them? From the positive side of it, I guess the, the first thing that they would need to realize is that it is a job with very big responsibilities and duties and that most, most important of all, it is a job that you cannot perform on your own. You need your Commissioners, your counterparts to be able to work with you to accomplish and better what you have for your community. I think that it can be a self-rewarding job if you have done the best that you can. and in your heart, you know that. I guess, that you are trying to control and keep things straight. Dr. Gutiérrez: You made a point to say on the positive side, so there is a negative side? What would you not tell them? Judge Ramirez: Well, the negative side is that politics is politics. Sometimes you will want to please a large majority of people and you just can’t do it. You are always going to have one group that will support you and one that will not and there is always a shifting of supporters. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s switch tracks here and, and bring the interview to a conclusion. About your personal political activities outside of the office. Who do you look to for leadership at the national level? Who do you think is your leaders for our, for a Mexican-American County Judge female in Zapata County, who does she look to for leadership at the national level? Judge Ramirez: That is a hard question too. Dr. Gutiérrez: State level? The regional area? Judge Ramirez: Well, who do we look for to leadership? Dr. Gutiérrez: No, you. Judge Ramirez: Actually, well, I guess I would say perhaps our State Representatives. They are a little bit closer to us. Dr. Gutiérrez: And which one is yours? Judge Ramirez: Irma Rangel and I guess, she would be the one that I would look up to. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Victor Morales. What do you think his chances are for U. S. Senate? What do you think of his campaign and what he is doing? Judge Ramirez: I think that he is doing an excellent job. He is a very down to earth person that can probably sympathize with the majority of the problems that working class citizens face. And I really do think that he has an excellent chance at winning. Dr. Gutiérrez: What do you want to do for his campaign? Judge Ramirez: Well, number one, the people need to be educated about what his issues are. I think that most important he needs to come visit our community. In small communities, such as ours, it is important that we get the opportunity to see and speak to the candidate directly. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you belong to organizations locally or statewide or nationally? LULAC or G.I. Forum or Mexican American Democrats or religious groups or anything? Judge Ramirez: Actually, no. My activities as far as being involved in organizations is somewhat limited by choice. Dr. Gutiérrez: Active in church or anything? Judge Ramirez: I volunteer and help out wherever I can, but I cannot always commit myself to any particular organization because I rarely find the time. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is your religious preference? Judge Ramirez: Well, it has changed somewhat. I have always been a devoted Catholic, but basically, I think I would consider myself non-denominational. Dr. Gutiérrez: What happened? Judge Ramirez: I, well, I think that when we needed direction from our own local Catholic church, it was not there to guide us and to help us come together. I saw the church as being judgmental in many areas when in fact, I don’t think that it is their place or anybody else’s to judge anybody’s life. I think that we are all human, we all make mistakes, and judging harshly is not how you can change people or even the world. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did this happen to you before your campaign or during the campaign? Judge Ramirez: Before and after. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, it is related to your politics? Judge Ramirez: Yes, it is related to politics. And I am not saying that perhaps there is Catholic churches out there somewhere else that are leading the people into the faith, but this particular church totally turned me away. Dr. Gutiérrez: What do you think the issues of more importance are for Mexican-American community here in Zapata? Judge Ramirez: Issues? Jobs. The economy. Education. I think that these are very important issues that the community as a whole should come together and address. Perhaps to our state legislators and I think that we need to come together to voice our opinions and make ourselves be heard. Dr. Gutiérrez: I have asked you a lot of questions. Was there a question that you wish that I would have asked you and I didn’t? Or a comment that you wanted to make that you didn’t get into? Judge Ramirez: I think basically, education and young people are a priority in my life and my objectives. Basically because they will be the leaders of tomorrow. I would like to encourage all the young people out there to get themselves an education. Don’t let anyone tell you that your dreams are not possible. Believe in yourself and make your family and work sacred. Hold them dear to your hearts and always work very hard. I believe that, at the end, it will pay off. We may not see it and as, as soon as we want and we may doubt, perhaps, that we may get something good out of doing what is honest and right, but I think that maybe at the end it will turn out to be rewarding. Dr. Gutiérrez: I know this picture is behind you. May I film them and will you show me your courtroom and film that? Judge Ramirez: Yes, most definitely. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me just kind of unhook here and then we will be able to get to it. Wow, you have got some clippings down here, tambien (also). Judge Ramirez: Si . (Yes) Well, what I am going to do, I have a whole bunch of, of newspaper clippings from the very beginning of the campaign up until today and I would like to share that with you, but I will probably just have to Federal Express it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh oh. Judge Ramirez: It is just too much material. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh oh. Well, let’s see. Show me, who are these people over here? Judge Ramirez: OK, uh, these are my law school friends. Dr. Gutiérrez: Classmates? Let me see. I have got to get out of this light because... Judge Ramirez: It ended up with having only four graduating at that time and we were actually holding classes at the Echo Motel. We were practically run off from everywhere. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who are these people? Can you point them out and identify them? Judge Ramirez: This is Rolando Cantu, who is now a practicing attorney. He was an accountant before. That is myself. This is Judge Gilberto Hinojosa, who was the main speaker at our ceremonies. Nora De Leon and Rachel Sarabia, who works with the Attorney General’s office. Dr. Gutiérrez: And this child over here? Judge Ramirez: That is Javy at the graduation and then, Angela. Javy is my first born and this is Angela. They are now five and seven and this is my, my dad, my mother. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where is your dad? Judge Ramirez: My dad is right here on the end. This is my dad, my mom, and my husband, and Javy. Angela was only seven months at the time and she was kind of cranky, so she stayed at home. Dr. Gutiérrez: And this is kids again down here? Judge Ramirez: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Judge Ramirez: My whole pictures. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Judge Ramirez: It is like two years older. Dr. Gutiérrez: I saw a newspaper clipping. You got a pile of work here. And a clipping back here, let me see if I can get it turned around. What, what does this mean, this Lethal Weapon article? What is, what is this about? Judge Ramirez: Are you tape recording? Dr. Gutiérrez: Yes. Judge Ramirez: Well, the Valley [Rio Grande] kept up with the, with our politics down here and they were just touching base to see how we were doing. Dr. Gutiérrez: And how are you doing? Judge Ramirez: We are surviving. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Judge Ramirez: We are survivors and we have a job to do and it is going to get done. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I want to thank you for taking time to do this. Next thing we do is turn it off and go into your courtroom and you can show us that. Judge Ramirez: OK. Here. Dr. Gutiérrez: This is the Zapata County Commissioner’s Court room. Is this where you hold Court then? Judge Ramirez: Yes. It is. We hold Court on the first Monday of every month and call special meetings when needed. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, Judge Ramirez: This is also where we hold county Court too. Dr. Gutiérrez: And who is this fellow in the picture? Judge Ramirez: Coronel Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well maybe so. Judge Ramirez: Coronel Zapata. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh. Judge Ramirez: I guess one of the founders... Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that who.... Judge Ramirez: ...the generals, the colonels or someone. That was donated by the Historical Commission. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Thank you.