Oral History Interview withJosua Garza, 1996

Oral History Interview withJosua Garza, 1996 Garza, Josua Interview conducted by José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee José Angel Gutiérrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Julie Williams Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 62 pages Published online as part of the Tejano Voices Project. University of Texas at Arlington Libraries

P.O. Box 19497, Arlington, Texas, 76019-0497

Literary rights and title are owned by the University of Texas at Arlington Libraries.

2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. 36.

Oral history interviews published online as the Tejano Voices Project, partially funded by a grant received in 2001 from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission's TexTreasures program.

Library of Congress Subject Headings Library of Congress Name Authority File Jose Angel Gutiérrez Josua Garza none English Spanish Garza, Josua Gutiérrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews XXX oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos INSERT KEYWORD HERE

The University of Texas at Arlington

Oral History Interview with Josua Garza, 1996. Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 36 Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Location of Interview: Uvalde, Texas Number of Transcript Pages: 62 Cite as: Oral History Interview with Josua Garza CMAS 36, Special Collections, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries. Interviewee: Josua Garza Interviewer: José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers: Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Date of Interview: June 9, 1996 Location of Interview: Uvalde, Texas Josua Garza Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. We are recording, the date, let's see. Today is Thursday, date and time. Mr. Garza: Today is the ninth. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ninth or tenth. No, June 10. No. Mr. Garza: No, ninth. Dr. Gutiérrez: The ninth? Mr. Garza: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, this thing got ahead of itself one day. Mr. Garza:Andale (OK) Dr. Gutiérrez: So, it is not the tenth of June as it says on the screen. It is the ninth of June. We are in Uvalde, Texas, Farmer's Branch Insurance on Main Street, interviewing Josue Garza, also known as George Garza. This is for the Mexican-American Politics Project at the University of Texas at Arlington, Center for Mexican American Studies and what you are doing is volunteering to interview. You are accepting to do the interview and to give up the, your rights to your image and your voice and your person for the purposes of the interview. It is educational. It is not for commercial purposes. It will go into the archives at the Special Collections Section of the UT library. In a way, it is your archive, that if you want to put in a bumper sticker or letter or campaign report or poster or photographs, whatever it is; like your safety deposit box. That can be your archive there and it will be with this. This tape will be unedited and the transcription will be unedited and placed just like that. And it will be open to the general public if they have a research interest because it is a specialcollection. It is not in the stacks. People have to know. They have got to ask. And they have to have a research interest to go and view or read the transcript. Do you accept? Mr. Garza: I accept. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Pues (Well) it is two o'clock in the afternoon, more or less. We are going to talk politics. But before we do that, why don't you tell us who Josue Garza is? Your parents, your grandparents. Where they came from. Your maternal and paternal sides. Mr. Garza: My father, name of Reverend Josue R. Garza, mother Louisa Garza, Flores. My father was an Assembly of God minister for over fifty seven years, passed away about five years ago and this is something that had a great impact in my life as a youngster. I was able to be exposed to a lot of Christian ethics in our family. I am one of ten in the family. I am the oldest. I have got eight brothers and two sisters. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where was your father born? Mr. Garza: He was born in Calarita Jimenez in Nuevo Leon, Mexico, came to the United States as an illegal alien at the age of fourteen years of age. And it was through a compassionate act of an immigration officer that he was able to legalize his tense or his status here in the United States after being deported three times in one week, this immigration officer, nickname of El Colorado (The Red One), with red hair, asked him how many times have you been deported this week. He said "three times" and he said "would you like to become legalized and of course you know, in 1924, 25, uh, my father answered right away," "Yes." He gave him a business card, told him to go to the Mexican-American Consulate in Matamoros, Mexico, across the road from Brownsville and take this card over there and they are going togive you some papers. They would not even let him go into the American Embassy; he was so undressed or he was not dressed properly rather. His hair was unkempt and he was working the fields when they picked him up. Anyway, they gave him a passport and that afternoon he tried to cross the bridge, but he lacked the nickel that they charged him and he could not find anybody to help him out. So the next morning, after spending the night in downtown Matamoros in front of a store front, he went back and he met El Colorado again and the Colorado gave him the nickel that he needed to pay to be able to cross and pobre (poor) Colorado according to my father and he says "you are the only mojado (wetback) that I have given a passport and I have already also paid you to cross the river." Anyway, he.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you know the name of this El Colorado? Mr. Garza: No. My father knew him and everybody called him El Colorado, big, tall, immigration officer. Dr. Gutiérrez: But, did your father tell that story a lot? Mr. Garza: He would repeat that story as, you know, as if it happened yesterday. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did he become an Assembly of God? Mr. Garza: He was working for a sharecropper in San Benito, Texas, by the name of Jacinto Gomez. And Jacinto Gomez was a wild man, a barroom brawler, a womanizer, and heavy drinker. Real nice man when he was sober, but when he was intoxicated he could turn violent. He was good with his fists. And one day an old man went to the farm with a Bible in his hand and he talked to Jacinto and his wife Juanita and told them about that way of life and how there was something better for him. Well, to make a long story short, Jacinto accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his Personal Savior. He quit drinking, womanizing,fighting. He became a very docile man and he began to prosper financially and his brother, I think his brother also joined this little, what do you call it? Like prayer group. And he also changed and then Jacinto sort of forced my father into it because he had taken up drinking and smoking and so my father also joined that prayer group. It was more like a charismatic, they got together to farm and other Hispanic people began to come in and when my father was eighteen years of age, Jacinto shared his profit with my father who had helped him and gave him about three hundred dollars to go and enroll in a Bible College in San Antonio, The Latin American Bible Institute. And my father was a third or fourth grade education in Mexico, entered the Bible School, had a Spanish curriculum, and after three years became a licensed minister with the Assembly of God under the direction of H. C. Bogg and he started, more like a missionary, as a Mexican-American missionary of the United States. He opened a church in San Antonio on 19th and Hidalgo Streets, I believe, called Templo Bethel. It is still there. He started with about two or three people and now it is a rather larger church and from there on he went to another church in San Antonio. In another section of town, rather, and opened up another church and he would actually build the building himself. He was a jack of all trades. He was a very talented and from that other church called El Buen Pastor on Chalmers Street he went to Houston to a church that was already ongoing. We stayed there for two years and he transferred later to Eagle Pass. Again, to start a church from nothing, from the ground up, and that church is still there, Templo de Getsemani. It is located on India Road. My father was one of the founders of that church and he built it withloans from other church members. And it is still there. From there, we went back to San Antonio, Templo de Zion on Hazel Street and so we stayed there for about three years and built another church and in 1950, he accepted the pastorate at Kingsville, Templo Bethel in Kingsville, and stayed there for about five years. That is about the longest time we spent at any one given place and in five years we were transferred and we transferred out of that church and we didn't have a place to go. We came to Uvalde in 1955 and they stayed here seven years and then he added on to the church, built a house for the pastor and transferred to San Antonio. I stayed in Uvalde because I am married here and so this is part of our legacy. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let's go back and pick up all your brothers and sisters. What are their names and where are they at now? Mr. Garza: OK, uh. Roberto, the second oldest is in San Antonio. He owns a grocery store and restaurant. And Raquel is married and she runs a refrigeration business out of her house. Her son is in refrigeration and she is too and her husband is also involved in it. And then Richard is a Farmer's Insurance agent in San Antonio, has an office on 410 and McCall, I believe. And then Ramiro is a Tom's distributor for Tom's Peanuts in Laredo, Texas. He has been in this business for over twenty five years. Incidentally, I got him started in it and I also got Richard started in the insurance business. When you have a larger family, you know to take care of each other; and being the oldest, I felt an obligation to look after my younger siblings. Anyway, Ruben is Director of Federal Programs, I believe, or Migrant Programs in Stockton, California. He is school administrator. And Raul is a minister, pastor of a church. And...I lost track here of my otherbrothers. Roger is an insurance agent in McAllen, Texas. He is a District Manager for Mutual of Omaha. And Yolanda works for a finance company in San Antonio. And Rudy, the youngest one, is an electrician by trade. Incidentally, Richard the insurance agent is also a licensed minister with the Assemblies of God. He directs the youth program and he is very active in it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you know about your grandparents on your father's side? Mr. Garza: My father, my grandfather on my father's side is named Cresensio Garza. His wife, my grandmother, Felipe Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where are they from? Mr. Garza: Calarita Jimenez en (in) Nuevo Leon. And all my kinfolk from that part of the family retired in Calarita and Guadalupe, Monterey, Mexico. That is where our roots are established. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, on the mother's side, your mother, how about your grandparents on that side and her, can you tell us about her? Mr. Garza: OK, uh, my grandfather's name is Estanislado Flores. Also, a minister with Assembly of God. He pastored a number of churches in the Rio Grande Valley. My Grandmother, Juanita, Juanita Flores, San Juanita Regalado Flores and my grandfather pastored a number of churches. And they settled in San Antonio in 1941 when the war started because they had three sons that were drafted into the army and they needed a home base in order to be ready in case anything happened to their sons while they were in war. My grandfather was a barber by trade and H. C. Bogg, the founder of the Bible School, went to his barber shop which was close or in proximity to the barber shop, Brother Bogg, H. C. Bogg was a missionary that came to minister to the Hispanics. And he would cut his hair in my grandfather's barbershop and my grandfather had two other barbers who were his brothers, Estanislado was my grandfather, Felix Flores was his brother and so had another brother named Guadalupe Flores. And he began to talk to the Flores brothers and the first one to accept the message of salvation, according to Brother Bogg, was Guadalupe Flores and he was a wild man also. He was a drinker, you know, a partier. What do you call the word? Dr. Gutiérrez: Animal, party animal. Mr. Garza: Yeah. And his drinking came first. His family came second. And he changed his way of life and then Felix Flores also joined the church with his wife. They quit drinking and smoking and cussing and doing worldly things, as we see them, and my grandfather was the last one. He saw the change, that dramatic changes in the lives of his two brothers who were, I believe, younger than him, and they took him to church, Templo Cristiano on El Paso Street. That is where the Bible School was situated. My grandfather went forward and he accepted the message of salvation and they were discipled by H. C. Bogg. A crash course in the Bible and in theology. After a year they were assigned to different churches to start them from scratch. In Pharr, Texas, my grandfather pastored the church in Pharr and I believe that he started it there. Felix Flores pastored in Del Rio, San Felipe, Del Rio. Guadalupe Flores was an evangelist who went all over the place. And they all died in the ministry. And they were the pioneers in the Mexican-American Assembly of God. Dr. Gutiérrez: Your mom's brothers and sister? Mr. Garza: There are seven in the family, but there are no ministers in that family. They just didn't. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, your mom was already in the Assembly of God movement before your father Mr. Garza: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: Nada... (Nothing...) Mr. Garza: My mother, I believe, was born in it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh huh. Mr. Garza: And my mother was baptized in the Catholic Church, as a child. Now, all the younger brothers were not. My father was baptized in the Catholic Church, but he tells a story that really disillusioned him with the Catholic Church. They worked for a large land owner in Calarita and my father, at the age of eleven, twelve, and thirteen would go with his father to work, just for survival. I am talking about 1920, 21, when hunger was very prominent in that part of Mexico and he related this story to me and I quote him. "He says every time the priest went to the ranch or to the farm, they would have Mass, they would have confession. And a few days later, they would get the beating of their lives, my grandfather and his two brothers. And what they were doing, just because of hunge....They were shepherds. They were sheep herders. They would slaughter a cabrito (baby goat) and...to feed themselves because of hunger. Well, they would confess to the priest and the priest would pass the information on to the land owner. And so the rancher... the rancher would just whip the tar out of them. And they could not figure out why or who was snitching on them. And finally it dawned on them that the priest was an informant, informant for the land owner. And it was not a coincidence that he was brought every month or every two months to have a Mass at the ranch." So, my father always held that against theChurch because they were condoning and they were stealing. They were wrong," my father said. We were wrong, but we were hungry. It was nothing else." Money was not available during the, right before the depression here in the United States, but he and his father came to work in the Rio Grande Valley for fifty cents a day, from sunup to sundown. And that was all they could get. My grandfather returned during the repatriation (repatriations), how do you call it? Dr. Gutiérrez: Repatriation. Mr. Garza: Right. He went back but my father stayed. And so he, and later became an American citizen; but my father taught us something about being entrepreneurs. My father was never at loss for work. He could do anything he wanted. He was a carpenter; he was a brick layer; he was an electrician; he was an auto mechanic; anything that broke down, but he always taught us to work. And I know that he would buy us oranges, bulk, and we would go door to door in our barrio, selling them. And we learned about profit and loss, how to make a profit. We were able to communicate. We learned communication skills just talking to the adults. We would sell tortillas, corn tortillas. My grandmother would make them whenever she came from Mexico and we would sell them and we would get a commission from selling them. So, selling has never been a problem to me. I went out about thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, I believe sixteen years of age, up until sixteen, I owned my own business and I earned more money than my father who was a dealer for the Corpus Christi Caller Times and I delivered eight hundred papers a day on two bicycles. My brother and I would work together. I would collect. I would pay my newspaper bill, my account and the rest was profit. I would buy themfor two and one half cents, each paper, and sell them for a nickel. So, I would make about a hundred dollars a week and I learned business from that angle that you have got to make a profit. And this has paid off because I have never been at loss for a job. I have sold peanuts. I was a distributor for Tom's Peanuts later, in, what in 1971; I bought a dealership or a franchise rather from Tom's Peanuts and made a lot of money. And it grew from one truck, one man route to where we had about ten employees and eight routes, extending from Uvalde west to Del Rio and south to Laredo, Zapata and I sold the business, made some money and went into the insurance business. And I like to sell and I can sell because I learned that as a child. My father taught us those skills and he was always of the philosophy that a young man in school that did not work was going to get into trouble. Decia, "una mente osciosa se va a meter en problemas." (He would say, "an idle mind will get into trouble.") And I can't really.... An idle mind will get you into trouble. So, after school we always had a job somewhere. So we did not have a chance to run up and down with gangs or just be idle or look for trouble because we were always working and we were tired. And after work, we would study. But he taught us to work. He demanded that we go to school everyday and if we ever got in trouble in school, we got, if we received capital punishment or corporal punishment, rather. Man, you would pray that he would not find out about it, because we would get it back at home. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, I can assume that all of your brothers and sisters finished high school? Mr. Garza: Some, but had one in college. And we have always been in one way or another. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did your mom and dad meet and where? Mr. Garza: They met in 1932, 33. They got married in 1936. They met in Kingsville, Texas, when my grandfather was a pastor there, and my father had just about graduated from Bible School. They later married in San Antonio in 1936 and they were both in the ministry. It was a team effort. It was something that the whole family was involved in. At that time a minister, a pastor didn't make any money. You were not in it for the money because money was not there. I recall stories that my mother told me that there were times when I had to eat two or three day old sweet bread that had molding around it, or mold, what do you call it? Mold, yeah. And she would cut the mold off and give me some pan (bread) and... some bread because that was all we had. But my father always found a side job, a part time job somewhere, painting, building a house, and he would compliment his income with odd jobs that he would do. Or whatever, you know that was our main source of income; whatever jobs he would get. I mean he was never idle. He was out looking for something. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you bring us up to Uvalde where you stayed and the family went on and you decided to make this your home? Mr. Garza: I, when I came to Uvalde, I of course I came here looking for a job. And I found a job in a grocery store, sacking groceries, and later I got my brother in there. Dr. Gutiérrez: But you were still with your mother and father, right? Mr. Garza: Yes, yes. That was 1955 up until 1961, when I got married. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, in '55 you were in high school here or Mr. Garza: High School. At Uvalde High School and we always had to get a job. We would look, we would look. Even if it did not pay very much, we still had to get a job. In 1956, my brother was employed by the Tex Tract Company, Aerial Applicators, crop dusters, we would call them at that time; loading and unloading airplanes, marking the roads, the fields, and that was a good paying job. That was seventy five cents a hour and you would work ten hours a day during the summer. And we began to learn that business and at the age of about sixteen or seventeen, I became the foreman. I would figure the load because you have percentages, you have fractions involved. I became the foreman in charge of about five or six Anglo men that did not have a formal education, had a lot of trouble figuring the load that the airplane had to carry. And so later on, I learned airplane mechanics. I restored a J-3 airplane. We tore it apart; the fuselage and everything and painted it; put the wings back, put in new fabric and controls and what have you; and what I would do is, I would do the work and the certified mechanic, who was my employer, just checked my work and then we both went up and kept this airplane and it flew. But we made a brand new airplane out of an old airplane and so eventually I received my private pilot's license, taking lessons. I wanted to be a crop duster but it was too suicidal. I saw two good friends get killed and that sort of caused me to lose interest in it. I wanted to live to be an older man. But I stayed here in Uvalde when my parents moved back to San Antonio. I was married. I was a senior at Texas A & I University at Kingsville. My wife lived here in Uvalde with her mother and I would have to commute back and forth every week or every other week. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, what is her name and how did you meet her? Mr. Garza: My wife's name is Raquel De Leon Garza. And then again, I met her in the church. Our lives have been centered around the church because that is the way we were brought up and that is the way we believe. I have two sons, Ronald Benjamin Garza. He is an elected trustee at Southwest Texas Junior College and my younger son, Josue Neal. He is a licensed minister with the Assembly of God. He is involved with the youth department and he is helping a church in Campwood, Texas. He is a missionary at heart. He scheduled about three or four trips to Mexico, to Ventura, Mexico during the year. Takes some young people from Uvalde from the area. They will take clothing, medication, vitamins, toiletries, whatever they can get to take to the poor people over there in the mountains. And that is his calling. I wanted him to be a lawyer and one day he told me "this is my calling. Don't interfere with it." And he and his wife both enjoy doing that. Ronnie is married to Rachel Ann Adams from Rock Springs. They have three children, James David, Samantha Ray, and Stephanie Raquel. Daniel is married to Debbie Aguero from Campwood, Texas and they don't have any children. And they both travel to different churches ministering to the young people and his heart is set on it because he sees our young Hispanic, young people losing interest in education, losing interest in life, period. You know, going to gangs and going to drugs and he has a purpose for that and that is his ministry and he wants to work where youth are involved. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you get into politics? When did you first get an awareness of that and how did you get involved in that? Mr. Garza: Well, I became aware of it very much so at Texas A & I University. And during the farm worker's strike, we marched with the farm workers. Dr. Gutiérrez: 1966, 67? Mr. Garza: Around that area, around that time. I must have marched about five or six miles with them and it was a show of support and they were on their way to Austin and there was a Catholic priest and a Baptist minister and I can't remember their names. Dr. Gutiérrez: Charles Smith? And the priest is...., is that the priest? [Antonio Gonzales] The minister is from Houston. Mr. Garza: Houston, I can't recall his name [Novarro] to save my life. Dr. Gutiérrez: He wore a Jungle Jim hat? Mr. Garza: Right, right. And they had a cause that they were trying to bring before the eyes of the state. They were on their way to Austin and Remember Governor Connally? The attorney general at that time, Wagoner Can, refused to meet with them. They met him in New Braunfels and told them to don't even go to Austin because we are not going to be there. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that part of the five or six miles that you were in or you marched on in Kingsville? Mr. Garza: No, that was in Kingsville. That was in Kingsville. I kept up with them. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Mr. Garza: And I was so disillusioned that those two men that I campaigned actively, at that time, for John Tower, who was running against Wagoner Carr, vice versa. And I told people to vote for John Tower because I felt that we had received a slap to our faces when WagonerCarr decided not to meet with them. He was a Democrat and we thought that, well, you know, for the people; and yet he was against the very people that needed his help. I always voted against John Connally every chance I had because of that. And I was just so disillusioned with the Democratic Party, but what really got me involved at a local level was a Joe Uriegas City Council campaign here in Uvalde. Joe Uriegas was the first Hispanic to be elected to the City Council. Dr. Gutiérrez: So you graduated from Kingsville and then came back here and were working in what or what were you doing when you got out of Kingsville? Mr. Garza: OK, out of Kingsville, I went to La Joya, Texas, a classroom teacher because Uvalde was not noted for hiring Hispanic teachers. And I tried to get a job and there was Dr. Gutiérrez: Even though you were local? Mr. Garza: Yes. They could tell me that they didn't have no openings, but I knew that they did. Well, I went to La Joya and worked there one year and came back and went to work in a Tex Tract company. That was my college money. I must have worked for Art McKinley for about fifteen years altogether, on and off. In fact, I ran the airport for him during the school year. I would work part time over there and so he taught me to fly. Anyway, when Joe... I still could not get a job in Uvalde. It was a week before school started and I talked to one of the prominent farmers in Batesville who happened to be on the School Board here in Uvalde and I asked for his help. And he happened to be a friend of the President of the Board and he put in a good word. I have known him for many, many years. I just didn't know he wasPresident of the School Board and the next day they called me for an interview and all the questions they would ask me is "Are you a member of PASO?" That is the Political Association of Spanish Speaking Organizations that Albert Pena and Henry B. Gonzales created to help John Kennedy. I said that I had never heard of it. "Are you a member of LULAC?" I said I had never heard of it. "GI Forum?" No, I never heard of it. Of course I was lying. I had to do that to get a job. And I was assigned to a sixth grade campus. Dr. Gutiérrez: In Uvalde or Batesville? Mr. Garza: In Uvalde, Uvalde, and they were ability grouped. There was ten sections of the sixth grade from top to bottom and I had the tenth one. Dr. Gutiérrez: All Mexican? Mr. Garza: All Mexican. All the supposedly troublemakers and that was the most enjoyable, one of the most enjoyable years of my teaching career. You know, they weren't dumb. They were good kids. I just understood them. Dr. Gutiérrez: La mayor parte (The greater portion) were also migrants, no? Mr. Garza: They were migrants and I worked them hard and they had to pass. And we had reading every day and they couldn't read. They could read on a second or third grade level, maybe first grade level, but they made a lot of progress and I have seen some of those kids or some of those grown men now, they will come and visit with me and even thank me. One of them is a young man here in Uvalde that owns a rental company, rents equipment, heavy equipment. He just come in from Mexico. And we pushed him and now he is a.... He went on to high school and he failed in high school, but he was in the tenth section of the sixth grade, which was the lowest. He could not getany lower because there was no more room. As Rene Velasco has prospered, there are others that have prospered tremendously, but I pushed them and I emphasized reading. And they had to pass their spelling, their definitions. And now I believe very strongly in the three Rs and we made a lot of progress. There were some, we had some problems, but not to me. We respected each other and we worked together. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the other teachers treat you? Mr. Garza: Well, they were all right. We had about two Hispanic teachers in the whole school. Dr. Gutiérrez: In the entire junior high or in the entire district? Mr. Garza: No, no. Sixth grade. Sixth grade. Dr. Gutiérrez: Sixth grade. Mr. Garza: And I stayed out of the way and they stayed out of my way and the principal was a Hispanic. Y. P. Canales. A good principal, but his contract was not renewed that year because he was a good principal. He had a good organized school; good discipline; and the President of the School Board, a Dr. Dimmitt, didn't like him at all. And they didn't renew his contract. And we were helpless because we didn't have any political power or any influence to initiate any action, any protest. We were politically powerless, not only politically, but economically speaking. At that time, I believe that we controlled two percent of the economy here in Uvalde, two cents out of every dollar. But we had no power. That is when Joe Uriegas came in and filed for city council. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now his family is local, no? Mr. Garza: Oh, yes, yes. And Joe was a teacher at high school. Dr. Gutiérrez: They owned a grocery store, didn't they? Mr. Garza: Yeah, they owned a grocery store and their father was working at First Savings and Loan as a custodian for many, many years. And so Joe came in and he organized Hispanic students in high school, he and the late Gabriel Tafolla and for the first time in the history of Uvalde, a Hispanic was elected Student Council President. Joe was the brains behind it and he was elected to the City Council and served on the City Council about four years. Then right before that we had elected Jimmy Tafolla to the School Board. The first Hispanic to be elected. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were those At-Large elections or by districts? Mr. Garza: They were At-Large, with the person getting the highest number of votes elected, but of course after that the establishment got very smart and they put places, an imaginary district. It wasn't really a... Dr. Gutiérrez: Geographical boundary? Mr. Garza: Geographical boundary. It was just that if you were going to run in place one, then that was it, but you ran At-Large. That way they could control the election. If they would lose in the primary election, they could always come back and beat you in the run off, which happened after that and so I taught school at the Uvalde until 1970. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, these elections, were they in the early sixties with the poll tax still on or mid-60s or when were these elections? Do you remember? Mr. Garza: In the late sixties. Sixty five. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the poll tax was already abolished? Mr. Garza: Oh yeah, yeah. But they had a way of controlling the elections. If you worked somewhere, your employer would come and ask you and you couldn't run because otherwise there would be some retaliation. So, in 1970, I... Dr. Gutiérrez: What did you do in those elections of Tafolla and Uriegas? Mr. Garza: Walk the streets. Take people to vote. And just a go for Dr. Gutiérrez: Is that where you learned how to do that? Mr. Garza: Well, yes, I would say that because Joe was a very good organizer and Gabe was a very good speaker. And he could motivate people and he could bring out issues that were relevant to the gente (people). And Joe and Gabriel began to instill that Chicano pride in the students. I recall that, when I was teaching at Robb Elementary School, and even when I was in school.... We would take a taco to school with tortillas and frijoles and we would sort of hide it because we were ashamed of it. Well, one day at Robb Elementary School cafeteria, a young girl was eating a taco and she had it hid under a napkin but she was eating. She had the taco wrapped around her napkin and I asked her to give me one. Now, I was doing duty there and I began to eat the taco in front of everybody. And she said, "Do you eat tortillas, Mr. Garza?" "Yes, I like tacos. I eat them at home all the time." "Really?" They couldn't believe it. They thought that because I was a teacher I couldn't eat those things, those types of food. There is nothing wrong with it. Then the kids kept bringing me a taco, you know, during the week. And before you knew it those that were eating lunch, that had brought their own lunches to school, were bringing tacos. And I will never forget that Gabe Tafolla and Joe Uriegas one day organized a soul food day. And all the students, Hispanic students, took a covered dish to the high school cafeteria and they would eat frijoles and arroz, carne guisada (stewed meat) with aguacate (avocado). We call it guacamole. And hot peppers.... And the schoo.... high school staff was shocked. They didn't knowwhat was going on. They were eating tortillas like we do and they weren't being ashamed of it. And so from there they organized a Mexican-American Youth Organization in high school. It was about the same time or a little later that I filed for County Judge of Uvalde County. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now this Mexican-American Youth Organization is the same chapter of regular MAYO that was heard of at that time? Mr. Garza: Right, right. And right after that occurred, I decided, after being encouraged by others, to run for County Judge of Uvalde and I ran against an incumbent that had been there for a number of years. Dr. Gutiérrez: In 1970? Mr. Garza: Yes. A very good lawyer; a very sharp man, but very, very conservative. And he would not allow commodities [food surplus] in Uvalde County because under the pretense that it was un-American. And so... Dr. Gutiérrez: What was his name? Mr. Garza: Leo Darley. And I went to him and I told him that I had tiled against him and he laughed and well, we need a little competition. And so we ran a very strong campaign but about a week, less than a week later, after I filed for County Judge, I received a letter from my principal advising me that my contract was for the 1970-71 school year was not being renewed. And I quote him, he said, "I hired a teacher, not a politician." So, that precipitated a walk out and that walk out was the climax to a chain of injustices that had occurred three years earlier when Canales had been denied employment and others had also been denied employment. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did Tafolla and Uriegas lose their jobs over their activities? Mr. Garza: Well, no, but they made it so hard on them that it was almost difficult and impossible to work there. And Uriegas had their own grocery store. So he came back to run the grocery store. And Tafolla joined the Chicanos in Action Group at the time.... No. The Texas Migrant Council, I believe, and to help organize people. But Rogelio Perez was sort of phased out because he was also involved at the junior high level. And they just didn't renew your contract. And legally they could do that. Well, we went before the school board, the school board meetings one time, and they very, very conveniently decided to adjourn when we got there. And at that time, Jesse Gamez became my attorney, who in a subsequent time, subsequent meeting and Jesse asked them for a formal hearing, give us a reason. We don't have to give you anything. At a subsequent meeting, which was attended by about a thousand people, in a room that was about 20 by 20 and armed deputies were standing on top of the building. The famous Captain Alfred Allee sat between my attorney and myself. Dr. Gutiérrez: Of the Texas Rangers? Mr. Garza: Of the Texas Rangers. And daring us to say something so he could hit us over the head with a gun. He was armed at the meeting. And he would not let us communicate. And he placed his foot on top of a chair and everybody had to go around because he was Captain Allee of the Texas Rangers. And so we had a formal hearing and they decided to support the principal. Dr. Gutiérrez: Was Joaquin Jackson, also a Ranger, at that time.... here? Mr. Garza: Yes, but he played a distant role. He didn't.... He was exceptionally nice to us. But Alice was the bad guy. He was the one that tried to initiate a confrontation. And we kept trying to avoid him becausethey had the guns and we didn't. Anyway, they terminated my, formally my employment. And the next day there was a walk out. The walk out was just a climax to a chain of injustices. We couldn't take it anymore. And so the board members were all Anglos at the time and they felt that they were doing right. In their hearts, they felt they were doing right. Christian men, one of them went to the meeting with a Bible in his hand. And they felt they were doing the right thing. Our schools were segregated, ninety nine percent Hispanic in one school and ninety nine percent in the other. Robin Nance which traditionally was a Mexican-American school and they saw nothing wrong with it. "Separate but equal," they kept saying. And so H.E.W [Health, Education and Welfare] came in to investigate. The FBI came in to investigate. And we filed some lawsuits against the school district. I filed one myself to get reinstated and Genoveva Morales, who was a very brave woman. I equal her to Rosa Parks of the black movement. She came forward and said, "I will file a lawsuit." She had seven children in school and it was Morales versus Shannon court case that went before the Federal Judge, John H. Wood. And we didn't have a chance. No way. In my case, he agreed that the board had denied due process and made a number of errors but he remanded the case back to the school board. Dr. Gutiérrez: Back to Uvalde? Mr. Garza: Give them a hearing. Follow procedure. And that is all you have to do. Of course, by then they had a very prominent attorney from Houston, I can't recall his name. Cook... I can't recall his first name. And he wrote down what they had to do; hear him out, hear hislawyer out, you know, and then vote. Make it legal. And so we went back to Judge Wood and he said, "Well, you wanted a hearing. You got one and you are fired." Then he turned us down on the Genoveva Morales and the Shannon lawsuit that was filed against segregation. He said, "That you people wanted to be white for so many years, you are white now. You are not being discriminated." And Pat Maloney, Jesse Gamez.... our representative in Del Rio and in the San Antonio Federal Court. Then MALDEF took over the case and appealed it to the Fifth Court. It took about a year and a half to get it to the Fifth Court. And they reversed Judge Wood. And the school district appealed it to the Supreme Court and of course, another year of delay, year and a half. The Supreme Court refused to hear it. And just about that time, Governor Briscoe was elected governor. And they were an embarrassment to him because our district was still trying to protect base segregation. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he was from Uvalde? Mr. Garza: And he was from Uvalde. And I heard, and it was just through the grapevine, that one day he called them into the state capital and gave them a good chewing out and told them to drop your case. And so what are you supposed to do? And so they were integrated and went to, what do you call it, single grade campuses where all the first grade was in one school, second and third in another one and it was all integrated. There was a lot of resentment. I lost about fifty percent of my business overnight. Dr. Gutiérrez: What business were you in then? Mr. Garza: Tom's. I had already purchased Tom's franchise and I had about two hundred and fifty vending machines by that time and my businesskept growing. But then I had for about six months I lost about fifty percent of it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let's go back to that. I think you skipped many years into the future. You were running for County Judge. That is when you got fired and you appealed and you lost. But, and then you jumped over to the lawsuit and it took several years having to do with Morales. Mr. Garza: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: How bad did you lose the election or what happened in the election? Mr. Garza: I think we lost by about six hundred votes and there was a big turnout on the Hispanic side. I think I pulled about sixteen hundred votes. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you campaign then? Mr. Garza: I didn't know how to campaign. I went on the radio and I talked to people. I had no formal organization or just had a big heart and I had a lot of people that were trying to change things here in Uvalde for the Hispanics. People that cared and the Hispanic community responded tremendously. We had a small percentage that didn't like it, but everybody knew that there was discrimination in Uvalde. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did anybody win with you at that time? Commissioner's Court or anything? Mr. Garza: No, no. It was impossible to win. Well, after I lost my job, I stayed with the business for about six or seven months. Then I went to work as a classroom teacher in Crystal City. My brother, who had just returned from Viet Nam, took over the route and he kept it going. Did even a better job than I did. He is an excellent salesman and gradually we began to get all our annual customers that had left us and that didn't agree with me over the cause that they expected of because we were making a stand on it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you commute to Crystal City? Mr. Garza: Commuted for five years, back and forth to Crystal City and something real good happened to me in Crystal City. I was able to obtain a graduate fellowship and through of course, Judge Gutierrez and Angel Noe Gonzalez, who recommended me for it. And that year I went to California. California State University of Sacramento on their fellowship. And that was a stipend involved and I still had some time on my GI Bill, so everything worked out beautifully. I received my Master's Degree and Mid-manager Certification. And I came in and was employed in Crystal City about four years later. I was principal of two schools there, Airport Elementary and Airport Junior High, and then Grammar Elementary School. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me stop you for a minute. What happened to those kids that walked out? Who were some of them? Mr. Garza: Well, you have, right now, Dr. Arturo Alonzo. He has a Ph.D. from Texas A & M University. He is on staff at A & M. We have Alfred Santos. He has a Master's in Economics from Notre Dame. Joaquin Rodriquez, an attorney in Eagle Pass. I am trying to think of the names as fast as I can. Joe Martinez, Dr. Joe Martinez, who is a dentist in iedras Negras, Mexico. He is practicing in Mexico because he can't get a license here. He was with the University of Guadalajara. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did he go through the Becas Program? [Becas de Aztlan] Mr. Garza: I believe he did. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did any of those kids get drafted? And get killed in Viet Nam? Mr. Garza: Well, some of them did, yes. There was a case here in Uvalde that was happening and we didn't know how. A high school senior wouldgraduate from high school and before he could enroll into college in September, he was drafted. And it was happening so fast. And we had to obtain employment during the summer to earn enough money because we didn't have federal aide or any financial aid at the time. And by August, they were already inducted into the army. And so, somehow, I don't know how Joe Uriegas found about it, but the high school principal, at the time, would submit a list to the draft board, Ruth Webb [Selective Service Board Secretary] of all the high school seniors that were graduating, all the males. And on the Hispanics, he would check them off. In other words, you were rated 1-A. And the Anglos, he would put 1-S. That they were going to college. So that meant we would go to the draft board and right away, they would get them back as fast as they could to meet their quota. But the Anglos didn't have to go to Ruth Webb to get an exemption. Automatically they would get it. The Hispanics had to go personally and plead their case and get an exemption. But if they weren't enrolled during the summer, they would get drafted. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were there any Mexican-Americans on the draft board? Mr. Garza: Not at the time. Then Joe Uriegas got involved in it, then Gilbert Torres, Commissioner Gilbert Torres got involved in it and the attorney, Mike Gonzales from Del Rio intervened and the federal government forced the draft board to name a Hispanic and so Rogelio Flores, a local attorney, was named to the draft board. And they were monitored by the San Antonio office to be sure that everything was fair and equal. And I know a case where Ruth Webb called my wife's partner, who worked with Sears.... with her in Uvalde, and said to tell your son to join the Navy or the Air Force because he is going to bedrafted in two or three months. So, the boy joined the Air Force Reserves or the National Guard to get away from the draft. Dr. Gutiérrez: Didn't Genoveva Morales work at the draft board? There was a Mexican-American woman clerk who worked at the draft board. Do you remember it was? Mr. Garza: I don't recall that. I don't recall that, but anyway we lost sixteen young men from Uvalde, all Hispanics, that didn't make it to junior college, prior to us being able to do something about it. We lost sixteen, but they were getting drafted on the rate of nine to one. Nine Hispanics, one Anglo. And for the wealthier family who would keep their kids in school as long as they could, even if they didn't make the grade, they would go to summer and they would go to Sul Ross [college in Alpine, Texas]. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is Ruth Webb still alive? Mr. Garza: I think she retired. She is a very, very old person now. And I hope to God that she has been forgiven for that. Dr. Gutiérrez: After you ran, who were the next people that... and Uriegas... that did not continue in the city council? Who were some of the other people that ran for office? Mr. Garza: Well, after Uriegas was elected city council, he ran for state representative and he lost. And they brought Gabe Tafolla in for state representative against Dave Howard and he lost. And so then Genoveva Morales ran for the school board. And Anita Cano for school board. Francis Ibarra for the school board. And we kept losing. They were running the elections. And if we would get a thousand votes, they would get fifteen hundred. If we got fifteen hundred, they got two thousand. And they just seemed to beat us byfive or six hundred votes every time. But we never gave up. We filed a lawsuit against the county and they had to redistrict the county. They gave us a chance for Hispanics to get elected. The first County Commissioner elected was Gilbert Torres. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was the plaintiff in that suit? Mr. Garza: Torres. Dr. Gutiérrez: And who was the lawyer? Mr. Garza: MALDEF []Mexican American Legal Defense And Education Fund] was involved. MALDEF has done a great service to this community. And also Pat Maloney and Jesse Gamez, they have really, you know, helped us with legal, as I recall right now. And so Gilbert got elected Commissioner and the Judge began to get after him. They took all the heavy equipment, all the machinery away from him so he could not fix any roads. And finally we worked something out with the County Judge to where he was.... He was, you know.... At the end, the last three or four years that he was in office, he was a great fellow. He was instrumental in helping Gilbert pave the calles (streets) and pave streets on the west side of town. Dr. Gutiérrez: This is Darley again? Mr. Garza: This is Darley. I mean, you couldn't believe it. He asked for the Community Council [Community Action Program] to be reorganized. And spent to bring more programs. And you know, when all the streets were paved, all the roads were paved, we let him cut the ribbon and he says, "we will pave more streets." He turned out to be a real nice fellow. And very, you couldn't believe the hundred and eighty degree turn he made. And then Gilbert filed another lawsuit against the county, because all the Hispanics were concentrated in hisprecinct. So we go to federal court again and Gilbert kept saying if you take thirty percent of my Hispanics or the Hispanics from my district, we can win an election in another district, in another precinct. Rogelio Munoz represented us in Federal Court. And of course, George Korbel came through and they settled out of court. And the following year, Amado Cardona was elected as the second County Commissioner in Uvalde because Gilbert and Rogelio Munoz and MALDEF pushed it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now this Cardona and Munoz were part of those MAYO kids, no? Mr. Garza: Right, right. They were the original MAYOs. And so Rogelio is an attorney right now, a former district attorney. Amado Cardona is a probation officer, has a BA degree. And so they have been active. And we kept working at it. We would run; we elected the first Hispanic county wide, Maggie del Toro, who is Tax Assessor and Collector. She worked there for eighteen years and she got elected by a large margin. The school district got filed on for single member districts. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was the plaintiff there? Mr. Garza: It was, I believe, Genoveva Morales. She's quite a woman. Let me tell you. Dr. Gutiérrez: And the lawyers? Mr. Garza: They are very courageous. MALDEF was involved. Our Legal Aide. I think George Korbel handled that one. And they worked it to where two board members who were elected by the districts and three were elected At-Large. I was the first Hispanic elected from my, from the west zone precinct. Dr. Gutiérrez: And what year was this? Mr. Garza: 1981, I believe. And so I served on the school hoard a term of four years and then I was defeated. The following year I was re-elected again. I ran against another incumbent and I was elected for about two and a half more years. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let's back up though. You left Crystal City after about five or six years of working there and you came here. What did you do here? Mr. Garza: OK, in 1975, I was elected as Executive Director of the Community Council of Southwest Texas. Dr. Gutiérrez: That is the CAP board? [Community Action Progam/War on Poverty] Mr. Garza: The CAP board, yes. And I worked there until 1981 when I resigned and went to running my own business. The Tom's business. And it had grown so much and prospered so much that, it just demanded my full time attention. My wife even resigned her job with the Department of Human Services to help us with it, and it was a prosperous business. We made a lot of money with it. And I began to sell it in 1987. Even though we made a lot of money with it, we were slaves to that business. We were owned by that business. And one of the things that really hurt me was the Workmen's Comp. The insurance kept going up and up. So I was shopping for insurance and I wound up back in Crystal City with Emma Flores, who was a Farmer's Insurance agent. And she advised me they were looking for an agent here in Uvalde. So, I made contact and signed a contract with the District Manager and opened my own agency. Insured my own trucks and made a commission out of it. And then Tom's prospered and so I sold that business to concentrate on insurance. Dr. Gutiérrez: Sold to your brother? Mr. Garza: I sold part of it to my brother...Laredo. And then I sold the Eagle Pass, Crystal City, Carrizo Springs to Amado Rodriguez, who worked for me nine years. And we facilitated the transaction. Amado was not an American citizen, but he couldn't speak English, but he was a good salesman, my top salesman. Just ask my brother. And he is now a very profitable businessman. He knows English. He learned it. He learned how to say, "peanuts, cheese crisps, potato chips, Fritos, corn chips, Bugles." And we taught him all that terminology. And he would go to the stores and he would find a way to sell something. He would find a way to communicate with the Anglos and a hard worker. He owns a big warehouse in Eagle Pass and has a very nice home because he wanted to work. He wanted to prosper. And one of the things that I admired about him; even though he qualified for food stamps, he wouldn't take them. His wife had a child and he qualified for Medicaid. He wouldn't take it. And so that mentality he brought with him from Piedras Negras, Mexico has helped him because he doesn't want to be on the same level of status all the time. He wanted to prosper. He has done real well. He has got two boys at UTSA in San Antonio. His daughter is a public school teacher, graduate of Texas A & I University. And he has been here about, at the most, twenty years. But he has that initiative that is required to be an entrepreneur. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me get you back to the first term in the school board. I am sure that you then had a different point of view. You are now a policy maker, not a teacher. You had experience as a principal. You were on the CAP board running your own budget, your own programs. How were the politics on the school board at that time? First term. Mr. Garza: Well, they were, it was quite an experience. You could not get anything passed. Everything was set. And one of the best things that we did on the school board was when R. E. Byram resigned. He was the long time superintendent in Uvalde, who was responsible for the walkout. He is the man that fired me. And when he resigned, the next in line was his top assistant, Joe Ammerman. And there was a lady on the school board, Billie Bailey, whose husband was a medical doctor in Uvalde. They were newcomers. And she kept saying, "I want somebody else. I want someone from out of town. I want new blood in here." And what had happened in Uvalde for fifty years was that the same system had been perpetuated. The superintendent would retire and his assistant would go in and just keep the same good old boy system going. Well, she and I got together and Ismael Sosa came with us. We were able to hire Dr. Eddie Little. Dr. Gutiérrez: How many votes did you have that were Mexicanos? Mr. Garza: Just two. Dr. Gutiérrez: Two? Bailey and... Mr. Garza: Billie Bailey. And then she was able to swing somebody else. And so... Dr. Little came from Deer Park, Texas, from that independent school district. And then we made an assessment the second month. We told her, we said, "you are twenty five years behind everybody else." They didn't even have a curriculum director. And he kept saying, "Garza, I can't believe this." But we had a good football team. We won state in 1972. Our coach made more money than the superintendent. And so... Even the district even gave him a house to live in. The utilities paid and everything. But our scores, our drop out rates were among the highest in the state. Then Dr. Little camein. Our high school was over crowded, students running out the seams. Portable buildings all around it. And Dr. Little was able to pass a bond election, a six million or seven million dollar bond election. It failed the first time. And he kept at it and got it the second time. He started a new high school and he was very blunt. He told them one day that if you don't do it, TEA [Texas Education Agency] is going to make you do it. And he moved on to Kilgore. But he was here three years and he changed the system around completely. Had new ideas. And he was very blunt. And he ran the district, not the board. But my second term, after the second year, it was a lot easier because we were able to get things done with Dr. Little and he began to hire more Hispanics. Later Paul Curtis, the Finance Officer, who stayed there a year and a half, took over and he hired about six Hispanic administrators. The first time in the history of Uvalde we had a Hispanic band director, Hispanic baseball coach, an assistant superintendent that was Hispanic. Principals that were Hispanic. Nacho Mata este (ah), Mr. Lozano from Crystal City, Manuel Lozano, Olivia Talavera, Mary Helen Gonzales became the Bilingual Director. And that was just carry over from what Dr. Little had done. Paul Curtis worked with us very well with that. The high school was completed. Now we were working on getting more Hispanic teachers in high school. That has been a problem area for the Uvalde school district. Dr. Gutiérrez: Still? Mr. Garza: Still, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why don't they just hire them? Mr. Garza: Well, they have this site based management program where the teachers have to be involved. And I know my daughter in law, certified in mathematics teacher had just accepted a job at the junior high because high school would not move fast enough on her contract. But they stall you. They stall you until a week or two before school and you have to take other employment because you have no assurance that you will be hired. They always wait for the coaches' wife to get hired. The coach comes in and the wife is a math teacher or math minor, they will try to accommodate her and... Dr. Gutiérrez: Well the school board can change that. Mr. Garza: Yes, but we haven't been able to have a great influence on the school board. We have three Hispanics right now on the school board and there are four Anglos. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, the Hispanics only win the zone seat, the At-Large district still goes to the Anglos? Mr. Garza: Right, but see that is one Hispanic candidate that has won the east zone which was at one time eighty percent Anglo; Ismael Sosa. They have run good candidates, good Anglo candidates against him and he would beat them two to one. Dr. Gutiérrez: How does that happen? Mr. Garza: Nobody knows. And Ismael is very outspoken. On the school board he would lower the boom on whatever the issue was. And something else, he was never at a loss for words. I recall when the transportation director retired. They were trying to get his son to be a transportation director, who had worked there for a year or so. A young man of twenty four, twenty five years of age. The next in line was Rolando Ortiz, who had worked there for about ten years. And there was talkamong the board members to give it to the son. And Sosa let them know right away that we are going to promote someone from within. He is next in line and he is going to go. And it happened. A lot of progress has been made. I mean as you reminisce about the whole thing, you know we have made a lot of progress here in Uvalde, whether you disagree with me or not. But I can see it. The older you get, the better perspective you have of the whole thing. We have, now in Uvalde, a Hispanic Chief of Police. My brother in law was the first Hispanic Chief of Police in Uvalde and Briscoe promoted him to a higher position with the Board of Pardons and Paroles department and he went on. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the police intimidate the Mexicanos? You mentioned Ranger Alice before. How about the local sheriff and the local police? How did they intimidate the Mexicanos? Mr. Garza: Well, the sheriff had a deputy, a chief deputy, about six foot six, two hundred and fifty pounder named Morris Barrow. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was his name? Mr. Garza: Morris Barrow. And he was very hard on Hispanics. And he was charged with brutality a number of times and you couldn't do anything. And one day we protested and the city manager wouldn't hear it. And there was an incident involving a guy that was beaten up by Morris Barrow. And they charged him with assaulting a police officer and found him guilty in court; district court. That is why... He had probation, two hundred dollar fine, you know, whatever. And the guy was beaten. I mean he was slammed against the floor with his head and everything. And all of the policemen intervened. So, they testified and Morris was the Chief of Police then. And after I becamethe Director of the Community Council of Southwest Texas, the CAP agency, I got to be real good friends with the City Manager. The Assistant City Manager was our Board Chairman, Alvin Smith. And one day the City Manager called me and he said, "You know, you guys have been protesting for a long time against this guy." And Morris had gone off the force because of illness and he had just, he was off the force for about two years, three years. And he had just been rehired against the Hispanics' protest. We were all upset over it and that morning, Jack Castle calls me to his office and says, "you know...." Castle was City Manager. "I found something out this morning that I didn't know. You know, we rehired Morris Barrow yesterday. And I just fired him." That took me by surprise. Man, I was almost crying. "You know, the case involving the Hispanic that had got beaten up in jail in the police department?" He said, "Well, that actually happened." And I began to ask him," How did you know?" He says, "I had one police officer that came in today, from the Houston area. And he heard the news that Morris had been hired. He got here this morning at seven o'clock. He told me, 'I want to see you.' He says, 'Jack, you hired this officer. I want you to know that perjured myself in district court. If we hadn't been there, that man would have died. Morris would have killed him. He went wild.' You know, six foot six guy, two hundred and forty pounder trying to... It took two of us to restrain him, to pull him off. And then wound up in the hospital. And I lied. And I am going right now to the D.A. and I am going to confess.' "And, of course they fired him. Dr. Gutiérrez: What were those people's names? Who was the victim? Mr. Garza: Sam Aguilar. Dr. Gutiérrez: From here? Mr. Garza: From here. A plumber. All he went about was to inquire about his son that had been detained and one word led to another and the officer jumped him. Dr. Gutiérrez: And this policeman was from Houston? Mr. Garza: He had worked here, resigned here, and went to Houston. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is his name? Mr. Garza: Gary Ross. He worked for an oil company over there. He wasn't a policeman anymore. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, uh, the City Manager believed Ross? Mr. Garza: Yes sir "If you don't fire him, I will go to the D. A. right now." That was Judge Ross Doughty, and, of course that court... And it further proved our point. That afternoon, the officer which had just been fired, went into the City Manager's office and very quietly asked the City Manager, "May I talk to you?" The City Manager opened the door for him, says, "Come on in," and turns his back to him; leading him into his office. And the ex-police officer struck him in the back of the head. Dr. Gutiérrez: Morris? Mr. Garza: Knocked him out in City Hall; jumped on top of him and banged his head against the door. Sent him to the hospital And the City Attorney, who was about six foot six, jumped in; and, of course, the police came and they arrested him. They didn't even arrest him. They sent him to the hospital and everything was hush, hush. A lot of things like that had happened. That is one of the reasons that I have been involved because people have suffered. It was a hard price to pay. Sam miraculously escaped serious injury. He had a brainconcussion, but after being beaten, he was convicted of assaulting a police officer when it was the other way around. Gary Ross says the guy never even... all he did was grab his head and try to save his eyes. And Sam weighed about one hundred and forty pounds, a hundred and fifty. Can you imagine a two hundred, two hundred and fifty pounds jumping on you? And that is one of the reasons that I have stayed involved. Because things had to change and they have been changing. We have a fine police department right now. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the City Manager fare? Mr. Garza: He went to the hospital. Had a brain concussion. And he was out of work for about a week. Dr. Gutiérrez: They didn't charge the police officer with anything? Mr. Garza: They didn't charge him. He admitted himself to the hospital and had had a case of temporary insanity, whatever you call it. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he is still around here? He is still a resident here? Mr. Garza: No, he left, he left. But you know, he changed. Right around that time he had a serious heart attack. He is disabled, but he is a fine fellow now. You see him and you can't believe it was the same guy. I have drank coffee with him and he admits this. He says, "I am older now. Man I hope to God that God will forgive me for what I did." He is not the same man he was twenty years ago. That is what I am trying to point out. His attitude towards Hispanics have changed. Be it because we are the majority now; be it because he had a religious transformation; or whatever, or because of his illness. His sons, his two sons are excellent young men. They were not like their father at all. Dr. Gutiérrez: You said that the City Manager called you to tell you this story; did the City Manager also change afterwards? Mr. Garza: Well, the City Manager... When I became the Community Action Director.... The reason I got elected was that he campaigned for me. You will recall then that it was in 1975 that I was, that I had applied for the Community Council. And I went to his office and I talked to him. And he said that, you know, you are the right man for that job. He called Judge Tommy Sargeant back in Bracketville and recommended me. And he called the County Judge in Leakey; he called Jake Wallace. And he said that this is the man that we need. He can keep it alive and he can make a go of it. And the reason that Alvin Smith voted for me was because Jack Caplan, the Mayor then.... Howard Langsford ordered him to vote for me. Because Alvin Smith was no fan of mine. And you know, incidentally, you knew Alvin Smith. Man the last two years on earth, he was different. He fought for the poor people. And it may be hard for you to believe, but I can believe it because I lived with it. He went with us to the hospital board, the medical staff, and argued for the poor people; for the county clinic. He told the doctors bluntly that, "You don't know what is out there. You need to go out there." And he was campaigning for more funding and he even came to work for us at the Community Council, part time, after he retired. He was our biggest advocate the last two or three years of his life. "People need help," he kept saying, "and, you know, sometimes we are too blind to see certain things." And his racism that had been displayed earlier was not there anymore. So, I want to say that I can see progress, but thereis still racism. It is not as obvious. It is more subtle, but people do change. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, can we talk about the second term on the school board? You got a second bite at it. Mr. Garza: OK. I lost a Write-in election to Albert Mireles. And then the following year I came back and ran against Rogelio Perez. And that was a dog fight. After the dust settled, the west zone district, I beat him by twenty votes. Nine hundred and twenty to nine hundred. Dr. Gutiérrez: Explain how that happens. Were the Anglos recruiting Mexican-American candidates or how did this happen that year? Mr. Garza: Well, prior to that, the Anglos would recruit a banker and anoint him. Dr. Gutiérrez: Rudy Flores? Mr. Garza: Well, no. Alfonso Canales. They would recruit someone else from the college. Someone else from a business. And they would vote for him to keep a Hispanic in there because.... to keep H.E.W. or the Justice Department out of their backs. Or off their backs, rather. And so, once they would do that, they always had a token there. Well, when the single member districts were created, the two districts were created. They had no control over the west zone because we could elect our own. Well Rogelio.... When I ran, I ran it unopposed. Then Rogelio ran against Alfonso Canales. And we all got together because Rogelio had been involved with movimiento (the movement), with the walk out and all of that, and so he got elected. And so later on, we had our differences on the school board and he backed Albert Mireles on the Write-in and they beat me. And I felt real bad because I had not worked hard enough. The following year I came back and I politicked against Rogelio for the other west zone seat. And I beathim by twenty votes. That election was contested. And the judge ordered another election. This took place maybe two and a half years later; after all of the appeals in court cases were settled. And he beat me by two votes. And we became political rivals. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were you allowed to serve during that time or not? Mr. Garza: Yes. Oh, I was serving. I had taken the oath. And after that special election, the judge did not allow him to serve because he was not a resident of Uvalde. He had moved to Austin. And so what they did, the board appointed Frank Hidalgo, and four years later, became the president. But I was.... all the time involved in my business. My rent houses.... I had accumulated about thirty seven rental units to be able to be self employed. Not to he at the whim of a college or school district or bank or anywhere else. And so I see a house for sale and it is a good deal, I will buy it. I will get in there, work myself, paint it, fix it up, and rent it. Anyway, I was employed by Southwest Texas Junior College during the time when business was very slow, as an adult basic education teacher. And I.... The college was a little hesitant to hire me at the time. But Rudy Torres put in a good word for me. He was the secretary of the board at the time, and recommended me, and I am very thankful for that. I was able to get the job. I needed it. And so that helped to subsidize my income and I kept growing with the program. In the late... Jose Calderon passed away. Jose Calderon was a Co-op director [Cooperative Education] out of a junior college, of all nine counties. By that time, my son had been elected to the board of trustees... [Southwest Texas Junior College]. Dr. Gutiérrez: This is Ronnie? Mr. Garza: Ronnie, Ronnie Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: What is his business? Mr. Garza: He, uh, right now, he is a school teacher. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Garza: But he is involved with real estate. Century 21. And Ronnie, a young man of twenty six at the time when he ran.... And he was the first....He and Rudy Espinoza of Crystal City are the first persons ever elected outright to the Board of Trustees of the Junior College. Not only the first Hispanic elected outright, but the first person elected, period. In the past, the junior college was, the board would sort of perpetuate itself. If an incumbent was tired of being there, he would resign two or three years after the term. They would appoint someone of their liking and then he would run as an incumbent. So we organized a massive election. We made a....formed a coalition with Rudy Espinoza in Zavala County. Here is what we did basically, "Rudy, help us in Zavala County; we help you here." Dr. Gutiérrez: These are At-Large elections, no? Mr. Garza: At-Large. Dr. Gutiérrez: The district has been sued but that suit was lost, no? Mr. Garza: We lost that suit. It is still under appeal. Dr. Gutiérrez: It's still under appeal? Mr. Garza: The Supreme Court. Dr. Gutiérrez: Of the United States? Mr. Garza: Yes. Anyway Dr. Gutiérrez: Did the Fifth Circuit affirm the local ruling or.... Mr. Garza: Yeah. Affirmed it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Affirmed. Mr. Garza: See, uh.... The ruling was that we were fifty two percent of the population. 52% were Hispanic, who were the majority; we could change it if we wanted to. And Judge Emilio Garza, I hate to say it, he is another John Wood. He is a Republican. And that is where we figured we were going to lose. I was talking to George Korbel before the court case, and he says, "Well, it is going to be hard. Judge Prado will not hear it." And I asked what was the difference? They are both Republicans. He said, "Yes, but Prado graduated from Edgewood high school. Prado used to be a Democrat. Now this guy, Garza, graduated from Holy Cross High School. He has always been a Republican, so he has got a different way of thinking." And sure enough, we lost that case. We had a good case, but we lost it. Anyway, after that case was lost, I testified against the college, while being an employee of the college. I really put my neck on the line. My whole career was there. Dr. Gutiérrez: What year was that? Mr. Garza: At the college they did not retaliate, and I am grateful for that. They respected me. And so the following year, my son filed for the junior college board of trustees and wins that election. And he and Rudy Espinoza won. He won by at least two hundred and sixty votes and everybody was saying that it was a fluke, you know. He was lucky that he won it. Well, I didn't believe so. People were more aware of what was going on at the college. The fact that they only had a Hispanic there for twenty years, there on the board of trustees. So two years later, Bobby Lopez and Tommy Torres run for the board of trustees and they lose by 400 votes. This year Bobby Lopez filed against Whitaker and Rodolfo Flores was running unopposed for theboard of trustees. And Bobby defeated Whitaker who had been there for twenty three years. So now the Hispanics have the majority. Dr. Gutiérrez: That is only four. Mr. Garza: Four out of seven. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, I thought there were nine. There are seven seats? Mr. Garza: Seven seats. Dr. Gutiérrez: But Mr. Flores, isn't he an employee of Briscoe? Dolph Briscoe has been historically, you know Mr. Garza: No. He used to be; but he is a private attorney now. And he is the president of the board now. And Ronnie is the secretary of the board now. And now Hispanics form a majority. Dr. Gutiérrez: It is still At-Large, still At-Large, so technically the other seats are available, coming up. Mr. Garza: There are two more coming up in, well in two years. Rudy Espinoza and Ronnie are up for election. And we know they are coming after us, because we are going to work together, see. What won the election for Ronnie and Rudy was Zavala County. We were losing by about a thousand votes. And so the Crystal City Independent School District came in and we picked up about fourteen hundred votes there and that carried us over. Now, Bobby was losing and when Zavala County came in, we went over the hill. We won. The only thing we wanted to do here in Uvalde County was not to lose so big. If they beat you here by almost fifteen hundred votes, it is almost impossible for Zavala County to help you. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uvalde County is still in the district, no? Real, Uvalde, and Zavala are all single member districts? Mr. Garza: Right, right. And so it has been a hard struggle throughout the year to be able to be here, to get to this point. In February, I filed for Mayor of Uvalde and two other Hispanics filed against two Anglos. Raul Flores, formally from Crystal City, and Rick Perez, member of a large family here in Uvalde filed. Lencho Quiroga filed but he was unopposed. He had been there for twenty five years. He is the dean of all the council members. And so, I ran against a very prominent person, Bert McNally, whose father was, at one time, President of the First State Bank. And we worked our campaign door to door. We concentrated on the absentee in person, and that is where they were the strongest; and we concentrated on absentee by mail, that is where we are strongest. And, election day we beat him by about two hundred and fifty votes. This was election day. In the absentee, we beat him by about another two hundred votes. The total, I believe, eight hundred some... to five hundred something. We won by sixty percent of the vote. It shocked everybody. Even shocked me. I thought maybe a hundred votes, less than a hundred. But once the preliminary results came in, in the east zone, where he was strongest, he got fifty five percent of the vote and in the west zone. I think.... beat him by about eighty five percent of the vote. So, I knew that I had it won. Because we knew they were projecting that we would have won the absentee big.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Was there any problems from Raul Flores being from Crystal City? His being an outsider? And this is unusual....? Mr. Garza: Well, it was. Raul had been here ten years. He is involved with the Community Council. And we had to help bridge with him, but a lot ofus persons involved with the movimiento (the Movement) can relate to Crystal City. And Raul had never been a stranger here in Uvalde. Dr. Gutiérrez: How about, there were a lot of Anglo families who claim to have moved to Uvalde so they could put their kids in here when they left Crystal City? Was it true? Or if it was true, did they also leave by now or? Mr. Garza: No, I don't think so. That was a different type of election. There was some skepticism during the election, and then after the election, But I believe that at this point in time, down here have accepted the fact that five Hispanics would be the City Council and one Anglo. But we have all lived here. I have lived here for forty three years, almost. Ricky was born and raised here. His father was a contractor who has been here all his life. We always had dealings with the banks. And one of the reasons that I ran; and I guess I can speak for the others; is that for the last ten or twelve years, the west side has been neglected. Services are ignored or half done. Our people wanted new blood in there. They wanted some fairness. Like they have come a long way to have a Hispanic City Manager, a Hispanic Chief of Police, and the majority employed at City Hall are Hispanics. But Anglos controlled the City Hall, 3 to 2. And, of course, the Mayor, 4 to 2. A lot of things don't get done because the emphasis is on the east side. And so people on the west side, the Hispanic people in general, want some changes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, the city council, is that At-Large or by places or by districts and the mayor runs At-Large?Mr. Garza: Well, the mayor runs At-Large and it is places, imaginary places. It used to be At-Large and two years ago there was a question. Raul lost by very few votes Dr. Gutiérrez: Flores? Mr. Garza: Yes. And the other candidates won the election without a majority, without fifty percent. Fifty point one percent. Well, the court case, where the charter was amended.... and voted upon to change it, to go to places, which we felt at this time, was to our advantage. And the election was changed from a Tuesday, from the first Tuesday in November to the first Saturday in May. So, the Saturday was to our advantage because our people don't work on Saturdays. And they were there and we were able to get to their homes. This is a factor involved in our election, a larger turnout, and it helped us. If it had been on a Tuesday, maybe we probably would have maybe lost it or maybe not win it so comfortably. Dr. Gutiérrez: What has been the role of the newspaper? Has there been many Mexicano newspapers here? Mr. Garza: Yeah, we have had a Uvalde Times. Olga Rodriguez had it for awhile. And it was, it was really never accepted. But she had it for about a year, maybe two years and then it went under. Dr. Gutiérrez: That was a Chicano paper? Mr. Garza: Yes. La Politiquera made an initial effort here with Alfredo Santos and it just didn't....didn't quite take here. But it is a good paper. And the Uvalde Leader News is very Anglo and very little for Hispanics. And it was owned by Mr. Hornsby and was sold to Craig Garnet. But very few Hispanic items appeared in his paper. And we don't see any possibility of that in the future unless the paper changes a lot. Theydon't report too much controversy. They just try to keep it down to a minimum. But that is the role of Uvalde newspapers. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is the state representative district now include still, Zavala and Uvalde and Medina and Frio and Real or what are the district state representatives? Mr. Garza: Well, Medina, Uvalde, Zavala, Dimmit, Frio, and part of Webb. We elected a first Hispanic state representative, Pedro Nieto as a Democrat. So he changed parties in the middle of the term and went to Republican. And that caused him the re-election. Tracy King, whom he had beaten earlier, beat him this time around by about four hundred votes. But we put up a good fight. But now Pedro is the first Republican elected to a county-wide office as County Attorney. And he was elected as a Republican, unopposed. Dr. Gutiérrez: No Democrat ran? Mr. Garza: Ya... Ya... (There...There...) Dr. Gutiérrez: There are not enough lawyers in the county. Mr. Garza: Well, it doesn't pay that much either. But it sort of ties you up to handle civil cases all the time. You can't very well represent criminal cases because you are the county attorney. You are the prosecutor. So, Lydia Castillo, I believe, her maiden name is Flores in the District Clerk, has been there 2 terms, re-elected. That is something that hurt us in the court case against the junior college. Ismael Sosa was elected from the east zone, two to one. In Leakey, Manuel Rubio was elected County Clerk, unopposed. Very few Hispanic votes over there. Then, Lydia Steele gets elected Maggie Del Toro.... still gets elected District Clerk. Maggie Del Toro gets elected CountyClerk. And they usually.... freely get a large majority, so you can't pinpoint a target population. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is the Anglo power structure here now? Mr. Garza: Well, Briscoe, I would say.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Still? Mr. Garza: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: And who are his cronies? Or how does he have his network? Is it employees, is it.... Mr. Garza: I don't know, but he has a lot of say so. Pete Knowles in Uvalde. Dr. Gutiérrez: He is the dairy farmer, no? Mr. Garza: No, I think those are the former owner of JENSCO. Then became the president of the board of directors of JENSCO, a subsidiary of Shamrock Corporation. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh. Mr. Garza: They, big pipe company. At one time, employed three hundred and Shamrock sold it to someone else. They relocated it out of Uvalde. Dr. Gutiérrez: And in the Mexicana community, who are the power brokers? Mr. Garza: Well, I would say Jesse Moreno. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is he? Mr. Garza: He is the County Commissioner. Gilbert Torres. Other related people. You have Rudy Flores, an attorney. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ahh. What was that break between him and Briscoe? What happened? Mr. Garza: I really don't know. But he did resign from the bank and reopened his law practice. He had a law practice before he went to work for Briscoe. And he worked for Briscoe for twenty years. He had a veryprosperous law firm in Uvalde. But I don't know exactly what transpired; but he resigned from the bank. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is the President of the community college now? And what changes have been there? There used to be a Matthew... Mathews. Mr. Garza: Wayne Mathews retired many years ago. And Dr. Goodson, Jimmy Goodson, took over. He resigned and went to the Victoria College. And Billy Word was elected President about four or five years ago. And he is the president right now. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is he under a contract or is he just... Mr. Garza: I believe that he has a contract. Like a school superintendent. Every year they had add a year to it, but he is working pretty well. He has employed Hispanic teachers in teaching jobs. And the board as a whole is....it is more open than when, the way Mathews ran it.... Dr. Gutiérrez: Because you were Mexican? Mr. Garza: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did he, is he still around here? Is he still actively involved in politics? Mr. Garza: Uh, he is still around. He is very feeble now. He did get involved with this last election and he was campaign manager for Whitaker and he was physically disappointed that Whitaker didn't get re-elected. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did he go out and campaign against Ronnie? Mr. Garza: Oh yeah. They made the rounds. They campaigned against Robert Lopez. Oh, yeah. He made the rounds. He wants to live to see the day that Hispanics have no control over the junior college. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did he actually campaign like that? To keep the Mexicans out? Mr. Garza: Well, yes. Not only him, but there were others involved. There is a lot of money involved in junior college. And many estates that have been deeded to the community college. Gamer gave the Junior College six million dollars. Dr. Gutiérrez: But they sold all those stocks to themselves, no? I remember that I tried to get them investigated about that and did not succeed. Mr. Garza: I don't really know that much about it but the Whit family deeded the Junior College a three thousand acre ranch and with mineral rights and everything. There was a lot of money on that. And another family, that deeded a lot of land, I think a lady in La Pryor gave the college 300 lots. "Here keep the money." So, they always had a lot of money in the bank. Dr. Gutiérrez: Briscoe's bank? Mr. Garza: Yes. City Hall has a lot of money in Briscoe's bank also. But you know, in all, with all due respect... And in a lot of cases, I believe that that is the most arrogant bank for Hispanics.... Junior College.... Hispanics.... I had some financial reverses about six or seven years ago. And I was dealing with Blue Bonnet Savings and Loan, NBC Bank, Uvalde Savings and Loan. Commodore.... I think they took over Blue Bonnet, but they were trying to do a foreclosure on me like this...I missed two payments on my house.... They went to my office to lean on my brother. And the First State Bank was a little hard too. Well, I went to Briscoe and sat in his office. And, I told him our predicament. "What do you want me to do?" I said, "Give me some time. I just need more time. I am down, but I am not out. I just need some time." I was six payments behind. You are talking about three thousand a month. I owned a little ranch. I was paying athousand dollars a month on it. Paying about seven hundred a month here, $700 on a house. He called the president of the bank and he says, " 'Work with Mr. Garza, he's been here a long time.' `We will work something out for you.' "In the six months there I gave two payments. We had the other institution trying to take my house away from me, all my buildings, my apartments. I know. One of them, Blue Bonnet.... I was behind 2 payments. And I went to take it. Now, he wanted 3. I wouldn't. Now, you are talking about fifteen hundred dollars a month. "I don't owe you people three." "Cough up three in ten days. We will have all three of them. We will call your note in." So, I could only make three payments; then they want four. They made it so hard for me to pay. Why? Because I had a lot of equity, you know, from seventy five... eighty five.... to... seventy five thousand dollars, you know. They know that they can take it over. Sell it. And make a lot of money. And they were ugly about it. I remember what the branch manager told me in so many words. "Don't ever come back unless you have four payments." I needed to take four payments. Then he wanted five. Because he was calling the shots. I told Leland Kirby, a local attorney, that. I swear to God. So, he said they had to take four payments, but take a witness with me. I left his office and at the courthouse yard, I met Commissioner Torres and I asked him to go with me. "But don't speak, just hear." Because Commissioner can get very atomic, you know. He can get.... "You sit there and you hear everything that takes place. I may need you as a witness." I said, "They are not going to take my apartments away from me. They are not going to take my house away from me." So, went back an hour or two hours later and ìI want to give you threepayments on that note. The branch manager rushes up to me pointing a finger at me. "I already told you Mr. Garza that if you don't have four payments, don't even come in here." "But it was three, you now want four. You have been increasing it every time I come. I don't owe you four. I only owe you three. And I have got three payments right here. Fifteen hundred dollars each." And he told me in so many words where to go, And so, "Well, I understand you to say that you are not accepting my money? You refuse to accept the three payments?" "That is exactly what I am telling you." "OK, sir. There is a witness right here." He turns around and sees Gilbert. "Wait a minute." He literally ran upstairs and about a minute later, he called and said, "Go ahead and take his three payments." He wanted my businesses because I had a lot of collateral in it and they would end up selling them for double the price and I only owed about twenty five, thirty thousand. Now the First State Bank was very cordial, very sensitive, and very approachable. Uvalde Savings and Loan was trying to foreclose on our commercial property that I have here next door. For two payments. And I made arrangements with them. I said, "Look, I am going to give you three payments and they went ahead and posted it on the bulletin board of the court house and if Commissioner Torres hadn't seen it, they probably would have sold it at auction. And the guy promised to wait. I go back and meet him and call it to his attention and he says, "I didn't tell you anything. You don't have anything in writing." "But you told me." But they wanted my properties. But of all those banks or lending institutions, the First State Bank has been the most approachable, for me anyways. Dr. Gutiérrez: I understand that Briscoe is also supporting candidates... coming around. That you all have been active in the Democratic Party now? Mr. Garza: Yes. Yes, we have been active in the Democratic Party. And we had a luncheon for Victor Morales and Mr. Briscoe and his wife were there. And he says, "I'll support the Democratic party. I am a Democrat and will always be a Democrat, but I don't intend to switch." He was host, Mr. Briscoe to Hillary Clinton and in March when she was here, and he endorsed President Clinton. "He is a Democrat. And I a out to endorse him." They were reminiscing about the time that Harry Truman came to visit John Garner and receive his endorsement. Supposedly that helped him carry Texas and win the election. So, Clinton is hoping that. See, we have done something here in Uvalde, also, that we don't advertise. We have a very strong citizenship program. Just alone here in Uvalde, in the last five years, I venture to say that five hundred people have become citizens. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is we? Mr. Garza: Uh, Southwest Texas Junior College has an adult education program and one of their requirements is that we offer citizenship classes. The rules have been relaxed, I believe, in San Antonio, anyway. I don't know if the rest of the country.... but if a person is fifty years of age, legally lived in the USA for twenty years, they can take a test in Spanish. That is in Uvalde. And if they are fifty five years of age and have lived here legally at least fifteen years, they can take it in Spanish. Now, if they are sixty five years of age and they have been here more than twenty years, even if they don't pass the test, they pass. As long as they make an effort to study well, everyapplication we've made, we stamp our name on it. And we take them. We take thirty five. We just had about forty of them that were from Del Rio on Friday. Dr. Gutiérrez: And I suppose they were registered to vote? Mr. Garza: We register them. They vote when they pass the exam in San Antonio. And we hold a registration card 'till they are sworn in and save it is for them. Monday morning I will file them with the Tax Collector. [as Voter Registrar.] Dr. Gutiérrez: Is this district wide or just here in Uvalde? Mr. Garza: Just here in Uvalde. In Eagle Pass, about a thousand, in Eagle Pass, it is the result of the Uvalde program. In Crystal City we have a citizenship center also. And there are not as many but we take forty or fifty every year. Bracketville has had for the last few years, thirty five people that became citizens every year. It goes to our agenda. And one of the things that we do is that we take them over there in the college van because people have a problem getting to San Antonio, even finding the office. It is way out there in the northeast side, on I-35 going to Austin and Selma. Right by Selma, so you know, we take them over there and we are over there holding their hand when they take the test. And we teach them the key phrases in Spanish and/or English. But now there is a need because of Proposition 187 in California and the people wanting to vote in November because they are afraid that if Dole gets elected, and the Republicans maintain control of the Senate and the House, then we are doomed. And they know it. So, there is a new interest in wanting to vote. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the movement of the Chicanos in the late sixties, seventies help bring all of this about? Mr. Garza: Well, a lot of credit goes to Raza Unida political party. They gave us an awareness for one of what you can do. It got people involved and it gave enough pride in a person that, you know, we can do it. Another thing is, another factor is that it forced the Democratic Party to open doors for Hispanics. And I have always said, and I will continue to say it, that Dan Morales got elected because the party had to open doors. And if the Raza Unida had never ever existed, I doubt that Dan Morales could have been elected statewide. The party got behind him. Henry Cisneros came about because of the Raza Unida political party. There was an awareness created in San Antonio and South Texas about the Hispanics being elected. And I have always said, "Here in Uvalde, it opened doors for us. It caused us to unite." And the Democratic Party was very insensitive and very indifferent to Hispanics. They wanted our vote but no commitment. They wanted to come right before election day and buy beer for all the Hispanic people here. Tamales. Joe Uriegas and Tafolla said, "Hey, we don't want your tamales. We don't want your beer. What are you going to do for us?" And as far as the conservative Republicans, Democrats who actually were Republicans.... well, we can't... "You do something for us or we are not going to help you." And we started doing that. I supported a Republican for state representative and we interviewed a Republican and a Democrat. The Democrat from Palo Pinto, close to San Angelo said, "I am not going to do anything for Hispanics. And Harvey Hilderbrand met with me and said, "Whatever you need. Let me know. And I will work with you." And he has. Dr. Gutiérrez: I thought your state representative was Tracy King. Mr. Garza: Well, that is before Tracy King. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. Mr. Garza: There was a re-districting during the 1990 census. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, how does Uvalde Mexican-Americans vote for a Bonilla, Congressman? [Republican.] Mr. Garza: Well, they didn't really vote for him. The Anglos voted for him. Hispanics voted for Albert Bustamante. Albert lost touch with the people and when Albert was campaigning against Chick Kazen, he would come to my office. He would go across the street to Rogelio Perez's office. He would go to Gilbert Torres' house, to Alvaro Cardona's house. He would visit with Henry Vasquez. But after he got elected, he would go to the country club, to the junior college, to the bank. So Gilbert Tones got smart; he didn't want him to do this. One day he called it to his attention. "What is wrong with you? Now you don't need us anymore? You already won the election now, and you stay with the people that actually opposed you?" But here in Uvalde, Albert Bustamante won big time because Briscoe endorsed him. But then Bonilla came in and defeated him. Big time. Dr. Gutiérrez: I have run out of questions. You have things you want to say that we have not covered? I know that you were real good friends with Gabe Tafolla, who passed away. I know that, you know, that you have been struggling and running forever and never letting the issues die. You conciliated all the factions; and you.... That is how you won. You have got plans for the future. You are on the verge of a lot of influence at the community college. There is a lot of things that are out there, but I don't know what to ask you anymore. Mr. Garza: Well, you know, Gabriel Tafolla, he was a pioneer of the Chicano movement, with MAYO, and he just burned himself out. His passing away was a great loss because we took it personally. C had the honor of delivering the eulogy at his funeral. Gabe had a way with people. And at that eulogy, I said that if somebody could be called El Amigo de Pueblo, (The Friend of the Community) that would be Gabriel. Because even when we were down, according to Gabriel, we were not down. There was an expression, Dale gas! Dale gas! No te rajes! (Give it gas! Give it gas! Don't quit!) His health began to slow him down. And I was asked if that would be the main reason that he phased himself out of politics. He got sick in 1974. I believe after a trip to Mexico and he never fully recuperated until it finally caused his untimely death in April, I believe, at the age of 52. But he was another Willie Velasquez, a fireball, until his health began to fail him. Dr. Gutiérrez: April of '96? Mr. Garza: Yes. And he just kind of faded away and I know it was his health. He didn't have his stamina. He didn't have the fire. The fire wasn't there anymore. And so we dedicated this victory to Gabriel, you know, because he did deserved it. Everything he sowed, we were reaping. He sacrificed, not only for us, but for all the people. The same thing for the Raza Unida party. You know the founders had to sacrifice careers. Finance it, so others could benefit from it. I know, here in Uvalde, for the longest time I couldn't get a job until the walkout because of supporting Ramsey Muniz. And because of being controversial, and not only the participants like myself, but my wife. And they went after my family. And my son could not get a job for a long time because he was my son. He applied for a job in NationsBank. And with a college degree, they were not going to give it to him until I called the President and put in a good word for him. And the President of the School Board... I took him with me and asked him for another interview and they hired him. "But Mr. Garza's son, you know, be careful." You see, many times you have to speak out. You have to make a stand on an issue. I will never forget Dr. Dwayne Campbell at California State University. He would say, "Anytime you have to go back one or two steps, you later go forward three or four." And I have always considered myself a change agent. And by no means do I want to be a suicide agent, but I figured that if I was self-employed, in my own business, and didn't depend on the establishment and be vulnerable. I would be in a better position to register people to vote; to be active in the community. And I am not the vocal type, the confrontational type, that would confront an issue. And I like to be more like a bridge builder. I will talk to people and try to get people to understand and compromise and work things out because if you don't have the resources to win, then you have to compromise. I will never forget Pat Maloney one day when I asked him, "How do you win your cases?" And he said, "Well you pound the fact. Pound the facts." I said, "Well, what if you don't have any facts?" "You pound the table." And that is what many times we are doing--we are pounding on the table, because we want to keep people interested. And I hope, I plan to continue until the day that I die. I am involved in church work. That is the center of our lives, my family. I am a Deacon in our church, Templo Cristiano, Assembly of God, and I plan to continue. And one of the things that I believe in very strongly is in a peaceful demonstration. I believe that if we lethate govern our lives, eventually that hate is going to conquer us like a cancer; and then we won't be able to function because of the hate. The last few years that Mr. Byram, the superintendent, Superintendent Byram that fired me, the last ten years of his life, fifteen years of his life, I sat there and drank coffee with him. The last few years of his life, he was feeble, sick old man of eight five years of age. And every time I would sit with him, he would apologize for firing me. He said, "Garza, I did you wrong. You didn't deserve to get fired." And earlier a principal, a high school principal tried to pull the same stunt at terminating. A baseball coach, and went to the superintendent and said, "Either the coach goes or I go. Now you select," you know. A real dear friend of mine was there at that meeting. Mr. Byram blew up. He lost his cool. He said, "I had a principal seven years ago that put me in the same predicament that you put me in right now. And never again will anybody put me in that predicament again. Mr. Garza did not deserve to be fired. I terminated him because I had supported my principal. And I did him a grave injustice then. Mr. Garza did not deserve to get fired." He addressed the principal and said, "There is the door. I make up my own decisions and don't try to put me in a compromising position." I love it. I liked the man because when you hold grudges, especially political grudges, they eat you up. Sometimes love permeates society When you lack compassion, when you are in trouble, it is so good to be on top, but then when the guy is down, it is hard for me I don't believe in retaliating. I believe in giving people a second or third chance as the community council director, you know, I kind of had to fire people because they broke the rules. And two things happen when you rehirethem. They either go to violate the rules again or they are going to be a best employee. Ninety percent of the time they are your best employees. They can even become your best friends, because you had a heart and you gave them a second chance. And that is one thing that I don't have any animosity towards anybody....even Mr. Byram, who already passed away. Mr. Shannon, the guy that was instrumental in getting me fired. Before he left Uvalde, we had a cup of coffee and we shook hands and he apologized to me. He said, "You didn't deserve to get fired." But see it was fear in their hearts and their minds that caused him to do that. Because we were the majority. It was fear. Fear of what? Of the unknown. When they can't control your mind, then they are afraid of you. But if they can't break your spirit, they can't control you. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is the younger generation of Anglos fearful or are they accustomed to the change or they are not even around anymore? Are they leaving? Mr. Garza: Well, a lot of them are here. But they are more accustomed to the fact that Hispanics are here because our student council president is a Hispanic. When I was in high school, we couldn't get anybody elected. And so when we went to junior college and had a chance to get elected, they were afraid of us. There were too many of us. But there is still racism and it is among a lot of church-going people. I know the school board that fired me, those people, you call quote unquote, "Good Christian God fearing men." And in their hearts they thought they were doing the right thing. When the guy went to Federal Court to testify against us with a Bible in his hand; and the guy was, by all accounts, a fine Christian gentlemen. But he believed that Hispanics should be segregated. A lot of changes have takenplace. They may not be so favorable to us taking over, but they are more tolerant of it. They are accepting it a lot better than their parents were. But some of the old timers that perpetuated segregation and discrimination are gone and their kids are not as bad as their parents were. Dr. Gutiérrez: Are you involved with any national civil rights groups or local civic groups or anything? I mean, as a member. Mr. Garza: I am a member of LULAC [League of United Latin American Citizens.]. Dr. Gutiérrez: LULAC. There is a LULAC chapter here? Mr. Garza: Yes. And I am a member of the American Legion. Been a card carrying member for over twenty five years. That is about the extent of my involvement with civic...I am always too busy. End