Oral History Interview with Lauro Cruz, 1998

Oral History Interview with Lauro Cruz, 1998 Cruz, Lauro Interview conducted by José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee José Angel Gutiérrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Scott Holmes Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 59 pages; 164 KB.

Published online as part of the Tejano Voices Project.

University of Texas at Arlington Libraries

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2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. 67.

Oral history interviews published online as the Tejano Voices Project, partially funded by a grant received in 2001 from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission's TexTreasures program.

English Spanish Cruz, Lauro Gutierrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos politics

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Oral History Interview with Lauro Cruz, 1998 Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 67.Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Interviewee: Lauro Cruz Interviewer: José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers: Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Date of Interview: June 20, 1998. Location of Interview: Austin, Texas Number of Transcript Pages: 59Cite this interview as Oral History Interview with Lauro Cruz, 1998, by José Angel Gutiérrez. CMAS No. 67. Lauro Cruz Dr. Gutiérrez:….1998. We are interviewing Lauro Cruz from, originally maybe Houston, maybe somewhere else, but I knew him out of Houston as the first Mexican-Americans state representative ever out of there. Long, long time ago. And you've signed a deed of gift form and you know the components of the interview. I forgot to mention that also when I ask you about issues and opinions on certain things. And you asked to start with the beginning which is genealogy. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Who are the Cruz’s; where, where did they come from and when and why? Mr. CruzYou know, originally I was born in Beaumont, Texas, but I left there, I am told, at the tender age of six months, so that's not part of my memory bank. Basically I am a Houstonian because I arrived at Houston at the tender age of six months and that's where I lived my life up until I was an adult. The only time I left there was when I was called to active duty in the Marines, in the Korean Conflict. But my family, my father and mother were in, from this country. They migrated back and forth to Mexico, mostly northern Mexico, Coahuila, Mexico and some of the family lived down in Saltillo, but the northern, northwestern part of Mexico. And my… Dr. Gutiérrez:Now is that your parents or grandparents? Mr. CruzMy, my parents. And they came up to San Antonio and my mother was on a migrant trail all the way to Georgia back in those years. Dr. Gutiérrez:What years are these? Mr. CruzOh, this was the early 19…, I'm having trouble with my voice. Dr. Gutiérrez:Keep talking and I'll get some water. Mr. CruzYeah. That was the early years of 1900s, the early 19, 1910, 1920. And that's about the time that my mother and father were married and my father basically has they basically all Lutherans, Missouri Synod Lutheran, very Orthodox, the most Orthodox Lutherans there are. Dr. Gutiérrez:How in the world did that happen? Mr. CruzWell, we were in Houston back in the Thirties and a missionary came along and started involving my older sisters and brothers and inviting them to come to church, being part of the church. And after that, you know. I've never known, you know, any other religion other than the Lutheran Church. So, then there was my, then I have a younger brother. My younger brother Ignacio Manuel Cruz and he's, he was a, graduated from high school. And, my, all of us graduated from high school. But my younger brother graduated from high school and went to the Army and became a cook. And when he got out of the Army, Ralston Purina hired him to cook fish, tuna fish, in big plants. So, he ended up making a career out of that. He was in Pango Pango and Puerto Rico and San Diego running tuna plants for Ralston Purina. They, they, they packed the, the Chicken of the Sea Tuna. And it's a funny story related to that, you know. My brother is, like I said, very Mexican, darkest skin in the family, you know. And, and so when he went to Samoa, Pango Pango, he landed, you know, and they always had a big welcome for the new plant manager. So there, all the Samoans were right there, you know, with, at the, waiting for the, the gates. And, so he gets off the plane and he just walks right through them, you know. And, nobody else got off the airplane. And, said hey, you know, he looked back. He, they thought he was a Samoan coming (not audible). But they said, " Are you the new plant manager?" And he says, " Yeah, I'm the new plant manager." Anyway, he ended up retiring in San Diego and he's still there. Also very involved with the church. So my dad ended up having another family where we've got about ten more kids and so mother ended up raising us. My mot.., my dad left us a house, a business, and a lot of work. Dr. Gutiérrez:What kind of business? Mr. CruzWell, we had a grocery store and a tortilla factory. Dr. Gutiérrez:Did, did you explain why they stopped migrating from Mexico or, or, or did they start in Mexico and end in Beaumont or, or started in Beaumont and ended up in Mexico? Mr. CruzNo, no. They started in Mex, in Mexico. Back in those years, I, I gather that there was a lot of migrations back and forth. People would go to Mexico and try something, they would come back, and they would go back. And you know, back in those years, there was no immigration points to, you know, you just crossed the border, you know. There were no permits or, or anything. Dr. Gutiérrez:Did the Mexican Revolution have anything to do with their ultimate settling out in, in Beaumont? Mr. CruzNo. I think that it was just their lifestyle they ended up doing that. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzThey ended up coming to Houston first. My dad started a grocery store there and on Congress Avenue, if you can believe it or not. It was, it was sort of the lower end of the downtown section of Houston and he opened a grocery store. My dad could open a grocery store with a loaf of bread and, and, and a roll of bologna. I mean, he really could. He really could. And he did it several times. And but what happened in Houston was they told him well, you can open that store, but after the sun goes down, we don't want to see you. And so he felt a lot of pressure there. So, he moved the family to Beaumont where there was an, an opportunity. That was, he moved, he opened up a business in Beaumont right in the middle of the Depression. So my family never knew what a depression was because at that time he had a, he, he, he started a grocery store in the Black community in Beaumont, which in, in, in that part of the Texas, there is hardly any Hispanics even today and much less back in those years, in the early Thirties and late Twenties. So, he opened up a grocery store in the Black community and he had a bakery, a liquor store, and a grocery store. And he did well. And for whatever reasons, by 1933, he decided to go back to Houston and again he started another grocery store. And he, you know, he, that was what he did. He, and as I said, he could start a business with a, just, just on a, on a, on a string of any kind. So… Dr. Gutiérrez:Did we get names of, of your dad and your mom? Mr. Cruz Yeah. My, my, my mother's name was Margarita Menchaca and my dad's name was Manuel Cruz. Dr. Gutiérrez:And Margarita was from where? Mr. CruzShe originally always claimed to be from Uvalde. Dr. Gutiérrez:Uvalde? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:That's in Texas? Mr. CruzRight. Dr. Gutiérrez:Not in Mexico? Mr. CruzNot in Mexico. Dr. Gutiérrez:And, and your dad? Mr. CruzAnd my dad, from, as near as I can tell, he was born in San Antonio and my grandmother, my grandparents were from Mexico. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. OK. Mr. CruzAnd my grandmother's name was Lena Cardenas. Dr. Gutiérrez:On your dad's side? Mr. CruzOn my dad's side, right. Yeah. And Dr. Gutiérrez:Did you ever meet the grandparents on the mom's side? Mr. CruzYes. I met my grandmother. I never met my grandfather. You know, those records were, you know, very nebulous. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. Yeah. Mr. CruzBut my grandmother, you know it was very funny how my mother ended up marrying my father, you know. Strange how these things happen, but those are, those are customs and things. Back, back then you just didn't do these things. What happened was that my mother stopped to talk to my father and she was unescorted and her brothers and her mother said you have to marry that man. You, you are out of this house. You were seen talking to a man on the street. And, so my grandmother took my mother in because she was thrown out of the house because of this business of well, you were seen talking to a, to a person by yourself. It's a male and that was just un, you don't do those things. And so my mother did, made that mistake, and so they threw her out and my mother took her in, and shortly after that she married my father. Interesting way the cultures were back in those days. Dr. Gutiérrez:Wow. OK. Well, can you tell me about your family, your children, so we can get the, the genealogy out of the way? Mr. CruzSure. Absolutely. I got married in 1955 and been married to the same lady ever since. I think about forty three, forty four odd years and I have my oldest son. His name is Chris and he, he went to law school, went to UT and then went to law school in Houston and ended up in, in California. He migrated, love carried him to West and then he moved to Salt Lake City. And now he, he got out of the business, the law business, and has gone, he, he's now working as a computer executive with a, a firm called Travel Ware. And it's, it's the, the computer world, you know, and he's doing quite well. And then my, my oldest daughter, she's here in Austin, and she's a, she's also a, a UT graduate. No, I take that back. She, she, she needs twenty hours to graduate and she'll never do it because she just won't do it. You know, she's been out of school ten years. She won't go back and take twenty hours to get her degree. But she's a, a phys, physical trainer. She, she has a business out at Lakeland and then there's my youngest son who is an Aggie. He and his, he, he graduated six months after or one semester after his wife, who is an architect. Both Aggies. They packed up and went to Seattle. Blind, not knowing if they had a job or not. They just researched it and said this is the best place to find a job according to the research they had done and they just packed up and moved there. And she works as an architect there and he works as a, he got a degree in business computers. He works for Boeing. Been with them for about fifteen years. Then my youngest daughter, she's a UT graduate in fashion design. And she is the only daughter, only child that has produced a grandson. We have a grandson. His name is Luke and she lives here in Austin. And she was married. She was married to a dentist and now she's doing work on her own. She has her own business. Dr. Gutiérrez:Can you give us names of these people? We got Luke and we got Chris. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:I want your wife…. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. My oldest is Chris and then my second daughter is Camile and then my youngest son is, is Jerry Chris, and then my youngest daughter is Catherine Stannie Cruz. Dr. Gutiérrez:Catherine what? Mr. CruzStannie. That's a Czech name. Dr. Gutiérrez:Spell it. Mr. CruzS-T-A-N-N-I-E. Dr. Gutiérrez:Does it mean something? Mr. CruzWell, it's probably a derivative of Stanishlava, you know. They shortened those names. Czech immigrants. Dr. Gutiérrez:Where did you get that inspiration to put that as her middle name? Mr. CruzOh, that's her, that was her grandmother's name. That was her grandmother's name. Stannie. They reduced her grandmother's name down to Stannie from Stanishlava. And then so we just named her after her grandmother on my wife's side. And my wife is, her name is Cloris. And she's Czech basically and her grandparents were all immigrants. They came over to this country, landed in Galveston on a, on a sailboat in the late 1850s, late 1850s right before the Civil War. And all settled around Braun, Brennen, around Brennen in that area. And basically that covers the… Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, when did you meet your wife? Mr. CruzOh my wife. I met my wife at the University of Houston. She was a student and I was a student. And we just hit it off and probably married a little bit early. You know, at that time I was going to the University of Houston and driving a bus part time. Somebody asked me, ABC, I was being inter, interviewed on the telephone by ABC and they were saying, " What, what do you consider one of your, some of your greater accomplishments? /" And they were amazed at my answer. But it was, I, I said, " Well, one of the things that I consider a great accomplishment is that I became a bus driver." And they said, " Bus driver?" I said, " Yeah, a city bus." I said, " I came back from Marines in 1954 and I, I was looking for a job. And, so I went and applied for a job with the Houston Transit and they never had hired a Mexican to, to drive a bus." And there was a lot of resistance, you know, for, just to be honest with you, this red-necked attitude that it just felt like, you know, we don't hire Mexicans. That, that was it. Well, I applied and while they accepted my application, they did everything they could to bust me on training. And they didn't manage to do that. And, so I became the first Mexican-Americans to drive a bus. And you know, it's odd because you know, people would get on the bus and I was driving, you know, and they had this huge mirror at, at the top of the bus, you know, about twenty four inches wide. And, when the Mexicanos would get on the bus, you know, they would drop their coins in the coin counter and I, I, I'd see them going back and they'd turn around and I'd hear them whispering, " He appears Mexican," you know. And it was crazy, but you know, that's, that's the way things were. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. Mr. CruzAnd so that was. And of course now, you know, it, it is so ridiculous now because everybody drives buses today. Today women drive buses, Blacks, anybody that wants to drive is driving a bus. But back in those days, it was a big deal. A big deal to be the first, a Mexicano and driving a bus. As ridiculous as that may sound. Dr. Gutiérrez:You, you said that all of your brothers and sisters finished high school. That, that was impressive, particularly at the time and then the number of, of brothers and sisters. Who instilled that in all of you? Mother, Father, or both? And then take us through your educational experiences. Mr. CruzYeah. Most, mostly my, my mother. She, she pushed hard for us to get an education and of course, high school was the, the plateau there back in those days, you know. That was the thing you shot for, you know. And, and so I was a junior in high school when the Korean War started and they asked us to, the activated it. So, I ended up going into active service in the Marine Corp. without a high school diploma. So what I did is I got a GED in the Marine Corp. while I was serving and I came back and I, I knew that I wanted to go on to school and I am the only college graduate in my family. Everybody else, that was their plateau and that's all they wanted, I guess. And I came back from the Marine Corp., wanted to go to college and the problem was I didn't know how to enroll. So, I just went over to the University of Houston and I said how do I get in here, you know? Somebody said you go to the admissions office and I said OK. Anyway, I ended up there. I was probably the poorest student you ever looked at in your life. I mean, I was just, I probably had the worst study habits. It was because of my early upbringing. See, when parents separate that creates a, a crisis. And, I was in that crisis at an age where… I mean, I was out shining shoes until three in the morning, selling newspapers, and all that kind of stuff, you know. And, so, you know, in the streets, you know, I learned in the streets, you know. You know, you could live a whole lifetime without all that experience. But it was there and I, I did it. And, and so about ninety eight percent of the people I grew up with ended up in prison, and, you know, there but for the grace of God go I, you know. I just, my mother, I guess, instilling us in church and school and…. But in my other hours I was out, you know, in the barrio messing around with the guys, you know. So, I probably had…. And, and I'm almost a self trained person. I mean, I was a voracious…. Dr. Gutiérrez:Reader? Mr. CruzYeah, reader. I mean, by the time I was in the seventh grade, I would go to the library and read Time magazine cover to cover. Just like it. Just wanted to read. And when somebody wanted me to perform in school, I wouldn't perform. Dr. Gutiérrez:You liked to read or you like to know? Mr. CruzRead. Apparently, whatever it was, I liked to read because whatever I was getting out of it I, I liked. And, so I was, you know, you get sort of left out there and, and, and you know, your mother's running a business. If you look back and you understand these things, but at the time it's happening, it's just happening to you. And when your mother is running a business, there's only one parent there, everybody is busy, you know, brothers and sisters go off to World War II, you are left there to, to do things. It was…. My life has been an incredible mixture of, of…. It's almost traumatic to think about myself growing up in, in that situation because you know, I, I had responsibility, but when I wasn't performing that responsibility, I was out loose, fancy free. And I had a, a, my job in the store was to, on Saturday morning, to go out and buy supplies. So, by the age of twelve I was driving a Model A. My brothers and sisters had gone into the service. That left me, at twelve years old, responsible for buying for the store. So I would get in my Model A and about five in the morning go to the Farmer's Market and, and, and buy cases of tomatoes, sacks, hundred pound sacks of potatoes, cabbage, lettuce, grapes, you know. Sometimes I'd make two trips to the, back to the store. And then I was trying to be active in school. And the coach… I wanted to play football, and the coach says, " We are going to have practice on Saturday." Said, " I can't be here on Saturday. I got to go buy groceries." I mean, you know, they didn't understand why I could not be there for practice. That I had to go buy. And, then after I got all the, the produce, I had to unload all that and then go back and buy quarters of, of meat. You know, quarter of a cow or a half a cow. And, and I sat there and select the meat and select the, all the merchandise and loaded that up, carried it back, and then after I got all the, the purchasing done, then I was free. Free to go run the streets. Roaming the streets in Houston back there. I, I grew up in the first ward, the sixth ward, some in second ward. So, you know, in the streets it's, it's just the streets. What can I say, you know? You know, there's not a lot of good things you can learn in the streets. I'll tell you one thing you don't learn. You don't, you don't get good study habits there. So, everything…. I go, it was done, if I'm interested, I'll do it. All right. If I'm not interested, you know, I may go through the motions, but I won't do it, you know. That's just a strange thing that the background gives it, you know, gives you that kind of whatever it is instilled in you by that kind of experience. So, I went on to the university and got a degree there. And I went to law school at South Texas College of Law. And I have a, a Doctor of Law. That's an honorary degree from the International Houston University. You know, the school that Lionel Castillo and that bunch started over there. And I have a lot of, I guess you call it executive framing, University of Texas, University of Texas and basically that, that's my, my background. Dr. Gutiérrez:Any significant experiences in the Korean Conflict or any significant experiences in high school? I guess you never played football then? Mr. CruzOh, I, I, I played football and ran track until I went to the Marines. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Or at South Texas College. You must have been either the first or among the first. There must not have been many other Mexicans there at the time. Mr. CruzUh yeah. No, that was, that was in, yeah, there, by the time I got to law school it was in the late Fifties. And, so there, there had been, been a few Mexicanos through law school there. Not a bunch, but a few. Dr. Gutiérrez:Do you remember some of the ones that went to school there? Mr. CruzThe people that were there before with me, you, I don't know if you know them, Martinez practiced law there. I can't remember his first name anymore. Abe Ramirez was there a little bit before I was there. The people that, that, that when I was growing up, there was only one Mexicano that was, that was an attorney. He was John J. Herrera and after him came, What's his name? Hernandez, Jose Hernandez. And after that came Felix Fraga. No excuse me. Felix Salazar. And, and then after that it was you know, you know, as, as people began to see exper, success and experience, you know, they were drawn to it. But what is the possible, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez:Uh huh. Nothing out of Korea? Mr. CruzWell, that was just, that was just the Marines in Korea. You know, that's… Dr. Gutiérrez:Now, did you enlist or were you drafted and told to enlist? Mr. CruzI, I, I, I, I volunteered for the Marine Corps Reserve. And, and that's why I, that's why I was called up. And they were, they were exempting seniors but not juniors. So I had to go. And it was one of those things, you know. You, you have to go, you have to go. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, how did you get into politics? Mr. CruzWell, when I came back… Dr. Gutiérrez:From Korea? Mr. Cruz…from Korea I worked at different odd jobs. The bus company, finance company, you know, those small loan companies. That, that, that was still the days when, when things were tough, you know. I, I went and applied for that job at a small loan…. You know, they call them sharks. But I went and applied for that job. And knowing, knowing how things were…. And they had this ad in the paper. I, I was there at seven o'clock. The place opened at eight. I wanted to be the first one in line. I got in line at seven in the morning. And, then the line built up over a period of time. And, then when they opened the doors they gave everybody an application. And I had already some college behind me. And, so everybody filled out their application. And about eleven o'clock, after everybody had been called upstairs for an interview, I'm still waiting there. And, finally the boss was… The owner of the place came down the stairs. This was downtown Houston. And he says, " Is that all of them?" And the lady that managered there, she said, " Oh," she said, " no, here is still one more." And that was me. Dr. Gutiérrez:Ohhh man. Here you were the first one… Mr. CruzThe first one in line. Dr. Gutiérrez:…and she forgot to turn that one in. Mr. CruzYeah. Then she… He, he looked right there as he is standing. He looks at my application, and he says when can you go to work? And I said, " I can go to work this afternoon if you want me." He says, " Fine. Show up. Be here in the morning at, at eight o'clock." But you see how things were? They were just ridiculous, you know. Anyway, after that I, I was already married by then. And I, I had a natural gravitation towards what kind of business? The grocery business, right? I mean, that's what I had known all my life. So, I went into business with my dad and, with a little stake, and, and that lasted about a month. And even my dad realized that I, that that wasn't going to work. And, so he said…. We found another business that was for sale. So, I borrowed… I got five hundred from my dad which was my stake in his business and I borrowed eight hundred dollars more. And I made a deal to buy this store. And this guy wanted to get out of the business, so the rest, I signed for. I paid for that business in one year. And was going to school at the same time and raising a family. So, while I was there… Dr. Gutiérrez:What was that store? Mr. CruzThat was in, on the Sixth Ward in the barrio, right off, right downtown. Dr. Gutiérrez:You know, I don't remember Wards in Houston. Can you describe…. Mr. CruzDo you know where, you know where the police station is in Houston? The administration building? It's, it's, it's just, Sixth Ward is just one block off of Memorial Drive and where, where Memorial Drive meets Houston Avenue. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzDoes that help? Do you know where the coliseum is? Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. Mr. CruzIt's about six blocks from there. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzRight downtown. So, that's where the business was. This was barrio. And I was there for several years and I used to always vote. You know, I just voted religiously. By the way, I had a, a, my degree and my undergraduate was in political science. But I, I noticed that, that there was this lady where I voted who was an Anglo. And I didn't understand that because by this time ninety five percent of the community was Hispanic or Mexican-American. And, so I decided to run for that precinct judge job. And I, I guess I overdid it in a way, but, you know… I guess…. She accused me of, of, of thinking that I was running for president, you know. Because what I did is I borrowed a lady's front porch right across from the fire station where the precinct was, where the voting precinct was. And this was the porch that ran across about maybe fifty feet. And I took butcher paper, and ran my name all the way across the top, you know, to vote for me. And, and I beat her pretty bad. And, and, and I don't know if you remember Frankie Randolph. Dr. Gutiérrez:I know the name. Mr. CruzShe was the, the, the mother of, she was on the national Democratic committee and she was the mother of the liberal politics in Texas. Anyway, I beat her. And, then I got involved in what was called the Harris County Democrats, which was made up of most of the precinct judges and, and Frankie Randolph. I got back to the grocery store about nine thirty that night. And I was in the grocery store and I had a pay phone there and the, the phone rang. That was an odd hour for the phone to be ringing inside my business, you know. And, so I picked up the phone and it was Frankie Randolph. I mean, this lady, she is a multi-millionaire, you know. Inherited that big logging or, or business out of East Texas and she was about seventy five, eighty years old. She had a gravely voice and she says " Is this Lauro Cruz?" I says, " Yes it is." She says " Frankie Randolph. You did a good job, boy. You did a good job." And I tell you what. Now she…. I found out later on that when she said, " You did a good, you are a good boy and, and, and you did a good job," that was the highest accolade she paid anybody whether you were the president of the United States or you know, the, the janitor. And, and I was, I was really, I had, of course, I had heard of her. You know, everybody heard of her and liberal politics. And I was extremely gratified to know that here this lady had taken the time to call me to tell me I had done a great job, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez:You ran this by yourself? Mr. CruzYeah. I did that by myself. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzYeah. I, I was not a, a, a…. When I had announced to run for that precinct job the people from PASO came over to talk to me. Dr. Gutiérrez:Who was that at that time? Mr. CruzRoy Elizondo, David Ortiz, and David was the one that came over. And he said, " We want to endorse you for precinct judge. /" I said, " Fine," you know. " That's no problem. What are you going to do for me?" He says, " We will pass cards out for you." I said, " Fine." But… And I appreciated that. You know, you appreciate any kind of support you can get. And after, after I, I, I won on that race, I, I became more involved in the political process. And it was almost impossible for a Mexicano to get elected in Houston because at that time you ran county wide and it was too expensive, and it was just prohibited. Dr. Gutiérrez:Let me just clarify this. Did you file and become the precinct chair, committee person, or just the election night precinct judge, that you just drew on election night? Mr. CruzWell, OK. What happened is for the precinct judge, that was on the ballot, OK. To be the, the precinct committeeman… I think I've got this properly separated… There was an election after they… Dr. Gutiérrez:Convention? Mr. Cruz…pulled the plugs, and what I did, I… Dr. Gutiérrez:That's what you are talking about? Mr. CruzNo. I won the, the judge, the judgeship… Dr. Gutiérrez:But the… Mr. Cruz….the one after the convention, I also won that too. Dr. Gutiérrez:All right. So you, so you actually filed with the Democratic party and, and… Mr. CruzYeah, exactly. Dr. Gutiérrez:…ran, ran a regular campaign and then took over at the convention as well? Mr. CruzAnd, at the convention I had gotten a fellow by the name of Paul Valdez who is a very good friend of mine, and I said, " Paul," I said, you know, " I am trying to make this as simple as possible." Now, most of the time, maybe ten, twelve people show up at a precinct convention. And I had about sixty people there, OK? And this lady was very upset. I mean, she was just really was upset, this Anglo lady. She was a nice person. She's just didn't belong there. I mean, it was the wrong… She represented the wrong group of people and she was voting wrong too. So because at that time the, the…. Houston was pretty much divided liberal and conservative under the Democratic Party, you know. And they had these big fights, you know, going to the county conventions and you know, getting your delegates stolen from you and all that stuff was going on. Anyway, she… I asked Paul Valdez to wear a red shirt. I said, "Paul, I'm going, I'm going to… Just to make… , when you call for the vote, I'm going to ask for a division of the house and you go tell all the Raza to, to… Dr. Gutiérrez:Follow the red shirt? Mr. Cruz…follow the red shirt. So, when we, I, I moved to, for a division of the house, he moved over to one side and everybody moved over there. She had nobody. She had three people there. And, so it was over with, yeah. And so that's, that's the… Dr. Gutiérrez:Skinny? Mr. Cruz…the skinny on what happened in the precinct. Then I, that got me more involved politically at the county level. And it still was prohibited. Bill Kilgarlan had gotten elected. You know he was a liberal. He got elected and defeated in one term and he was up here in Austin for two years and then he got beat. Everybody was, there had been other candidates, Mexicanos, running for different slots, but they couldn't, they got nowhere. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, what year was this? Mr. CruzThis was in 1966, the year of the election. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Now, weren't you already involved in the Farm Worker March by then? Mr. CruzThat was the year that we became involved in the farm project. The Farm Workers… Well, I'll tell you about that in a minute. But, you know, what happened is that in 1965 they were getting a lot of pressure to, for single member districts or some kind of districts that would be more one man, one vote. And, so the legislature divided the county into three multi-member districts. There were, there were three multi-member districts. There were nineteen members in all, but each district had peop…, six people, six people, six people and seven people. So it was divided into a tri-county area. So then it became possible to, to win. I was running in the, in the, in the Northeast end of the city of the county which was a big. It still had about five hundred and sixty thousand people, so it was still a pretty big district. But it was feasible because now you had a lot of the Blacks and a lot of the Mexicanos and a lot of the industrial workers in the same area. That kind of divided the, the, the conservatives and gave liberals a chance to win. So what we did after that is, it was even, there was resistance even in the liberal ranks because well, here was this opportunity for Blacks to get elected, for a Mexicano to get elected. And here's what happened. I didn't, I was not really ready to run for office at that time because I felt like I needed to, you know, get, get more things done financially and otherwise. But because of my activity, now my activity in the Democratic party at the time was, mine and what other element I was involved was very limited. We had about three or four people involved. Three, four, five at the most. And you are talking about a room full of Democrats was something like seven hundred people, you know. So anyway, I decided that I didn't want to run. And the, the liberals said to me basically, if, if you run we'll, we'll endorse you, but we don't know anybody else that was involved. So I said well, I guess I'll have to run then because if I'm the only Mexican you're going to endorse because I had been active. So I ran. And, and then the coalition met. The coalition leaders met and endorsed the…. The candidate that they were going to endorse… And there was one individual there, I don't know whether he had a loss of memory or, or maybe the excitement or whatever, but they voted and they voted to endorse, in that district, six people. Two Blacks. I mean, I mean, one Black and one Jewish person and, and four other people. Well obviously, there had been more people that wanted to be endorsed by this coalition. And the guy that was heading it up, sort of chairing it, he was an attorney there by the name of Chris Dixie, he kept, they kept, you know, counting the vote. How many, who's been endorsed, who hasn't been endorsed? And Roy Elizondo was in there on the committee. And, and they would say, " OK, now OK, these are the people that we've endorsed. This person, this person, this person, this person, this person, and this person. /" And, and Roy Elizondo would say, " Hey! Lauro Cruz. We endorsed Lauro Cruz." " Oh, oh yeah. Lauro Cruz. OK. OK." And then they'd argue and talk some more and talk some more and then they would say, " OK…" He, the chairman of the thing… " OK, these are the people we endorse. This person, this person…" And then Roy would say, " Hey look, we endorsed Lauro Cruz, too." Three times. And, and this was the coalition of labor, Blacks, and Mexicanos. And so… Dr. Gutiérrez:And no liberals? Mr. CruzYeah, liberals also. Excuse me, but I'll leave them out. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, you said labor. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Labor is liberal, on, on the category. Mr. CruzYeah, there, there were some liberals there too. And so, finally they concluded whoever they were going to endorse and he comes out to announce. All the candidates are waiting outside because we were interviewed and then told to wait outside. He comes out there and he says, and we were all anxiously waiting, and he says, " This person, this person, this person, this person, and this person." He counts five. And I said, " That's five." This is the same person. He says, " Oh yeah, you also. /" And you know, is that a lapse of memory or, or apparently…. I think he probably had somebody else in mind. But he still did not believe, this was the same district that elected Barbara Jordan as, for, for the senate seat and Curtis Graves, the Black state representative. Dr. Gutiérrez:But Curtis preceded Barbara. In fact, Curtis was the one that got endorsed when you got endorsed, no? Mr. CruzWe all got endorsed at the same time. Dr. Gutiérrez:Oh, you and Barbara? So, there were two Blacks? Mr. CruzTwo Blacks. One in the senate and one in the house. And one Mexicano as a state rep. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzSo anyway, it came right down to that last, you know. They, they… Whether it was a lapse of memory or, or, or that he didn't think you could win or whether he was commited to somebody else or whatever. But there was that that we had to cope with. Dr. Gutiérrez:Did you know how much money you were going to lose by wining that election? Mr. CruzNo. I had no idea. I had no idea. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. How did you campaign; how did you raise the money; or did the coalition do it all? Mr. CruzNo, the coalition was very effective. Everybody that the coalition endorsed got elected. Basically, I was the only… I, I drew five opponents because they felt like a Black could get elected because the Blacks voted in large numbers and the other folks could get elected. But they didn't, still didn't think…. There were some folks out there who were making their application for candidacy, but in the party, that were not endorsed, but I got, I drew four opponents. Dr. Gutiérrez:Who were they? Do you remember? Mr. CruzThere was one, yeah, one, one guy ended up in a runoff with me by the name of Bill Rice and then there was a Jewish fellow who apologized for after that he had put his name on the ballot. In fact, he caused me to be in the runoff. I, I, I gathered a little over forty seven percent of the vote in the primary and everybody else got elected. Everybody else. Barbara, Curtis Graves, Walter, I mean, Rex Bond, Joe Allen, Glen Victory, all these, everybody else got in without a runoff except me because I drew four opponents. And one guy, even though he was…. Purposely withdrew his name, was still on the ballot. And that was enough to force me into a runoff. And, of course, everybody was saying at that point, " You see! We told you. The Mexicano, now, now that the Anglo has got him one to one, he will beat him." Well, he didn't beat me. I, I really, I really just ran over him. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, did you do something different in the runoff? I mean, it sounds like you kind of relied on the coalition at, at the primary. Mr. CruzRight. Dr. Gutiérrez:But in the runoff, did you got out there and do your thing? Mr. CruzNo, I, even, even with the coalition Dr. Gutiérrez:Put your paper out over in the Sixth Ward… Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:….or the Northeast Harris? Mr. CruzYeah, it's, it's a big area. One third of, of, of Harris County is a big area. I think that I had the coalition's help in, in the primary and in the runoff, I didn't have as much help, but that did not reduce my enthusiasm because I was out there working as hard, working without their, with their support. And labor, labor had a large stroke in that area. And, you know, those people are pretty well organized. The only thing that I was counting on and hoping that I could successfully get out was the Black vote and the Hispanic vote. I assumed that the, whatever Hispanic vote I got out would vote for me, but I needed to somehow get the Black vote out because they, they voted in greater numbers. And I wasn't sure they were going to come out for me, you know. And without a Black on the ballot, you know, that, that makes it a little more difficult. But as it turned out… By the way the, the papers, the Houston Chronicle, one of the major papers in Houston, endorsed my opponent because they also thought that, that once a Mexicano got into a runoff that that was as far as he could go. So, the things did change after that. Dr. Gutiérrez:So did Barbara and Curtis help you or, or you just became acquainted with them in the process…. Mr. CruzNo, no, no Dr. Gutiérrez:….as more friends? Mr. CruzI, Barbara Jordan and I worked for the same foundation called Wide Horizons. We were working together when we first filed for office. Dr. Gutiérrez:I thought you were in the grocery store. Mr. CruzNo, I had left the business already. Dr. Gutiérrez:Oh. Mr. CruzIn 9… in 19… I sold the business in 19, about 1963 or '64. And, and then I got involved in, I was, I was the, I was the campaign chairman, co-chairman for the Humphrey-Johnson campaign and right in there I sold the store and went to work for an agency for about a year. And then when I get ready to run for office I, they did not want me because they were federally funded. They felt a little nervous about it even though I was campaigning, you know, after work. Then I went and work, to work for this foundation which Barbara went to work at the….. It was just starting out. It was Barbara Jordan, myself, and another fellow, a Black fellow by the name of Otis King who later became the dean of the law school at Texas Southern. Excuse me. I think he still teaches there. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, is she helping you get out the Black vote or… Mr. CruzNo, no. Dr. Gutiérrez:…you had found somebody else? Mr. CruzNo. You know, in a runoff you, even your best friends, they just go off to do some, something else. Curtis went to New Orleans to celebrate his victory. You know, he was from New Orleans and you know. I just, you know, with a little help from the coalition and mostly myself I got in the runoff. That was it, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, here comes the rude awakening. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:You, your, who else was in the legislature at the time? It must have been just a few there from the Valley and maybe Paul, Bill, John… Bob Vale is from San Antonio, Paul Moreno is from El Paso. Tati Santiesteban from El Paso. That's about it, no? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Nobody from Austin? Mr. CruzLigarde got in from Laredo. Dr. Gutiérrez:Right, yeah. The guys from the Valley that ….. Mr. CruzYeah, yeah. Yeah you know, that, that, that was an interesting period because it was beginning… It was a period where the… It was the end of the period where the Mexicanos that were holding office down there were no longer beginning to be elected by the big ranchers. Or not elected, but nominated, and that was tantamount to being elected. And here were Mexicano right there at that cutting point there. And back…. If you were Mexicano and you were serving in Austin, you had been appointed by the big ranchers. I mean, they had given you their blessings or you wouldn't be up there. You were an Anglo otherwise. So, but that was beginning, that was the point where the more, the people were getting more say about that. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. The poll tax (not audible). Mr. CruzYeah, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Keeping an eye on those Mexicans. Mr. CruzExactly. Dr. Gutiérrez:They're alive. Mr. CruzYeah. So, but up, up until that time we still had a few people that were pretty much, you know, the, the choice of the big ranchers down there and the big farmers. Down from, Raul Longoria was there. From Benavides, Oscar, Oscar Carrillo, from, from Brownsville, Henry Sanchez. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, you had one of the Canales, no? Mr. CruzTerry Canales came later. Dr. Gutiérrez:Wasn't there one before? Mr. CruzYeah. There was one before, yeah. These folks, we know, they, they, they knew their limitations. Dr. Gutiérrez:And Longoria become a senator? Mr. CruzYeah. Nobody in the legislature would rally the Raza in a, in a, in the House. They would, they were very competent people. They just wouldn't do it. I, I mean, I did it. And they, they, they would not refuse to do it, but they wouldn't take the lead. I said, " Come on, let's have a, a meeting over here," you know, and you know, have our little caucus meetings in the corner. There were only ten of us. And we'd meet in the corner, but it would be on my initiative even though I was not the senior member there. But they would do it, you know. They were not cause oriented, you know. They were and, you know, they were… It was the political thing, you know, even though… Shoot! I didn't, for years I didn't even know that Henry Sanchez could speak Spanish, you know. And, he was from, from Cameron County. And, and you know, Raul Longoria, you know, kind of voted conservative, you know. But not if you asked him to come…. If you presented an issue, you know, the proposed legislation and it was pro Raza, they would vote it. I mean, they would not vote against it, you know, or they wouldn't move too much to get, to get it done. Dr. Gutiérrez:Now, did you, did you adopt the, the coalition's liberal philosophy? Or were you simply… Had that as a counter already to your conservative family members or, or how did that come to be that you started championing these Chicano causes? Mr. CruzWell, my, my, most of my family is very conservative. For whatever reason, maybe it was the barrio, the running in the streets or whatever, the misery, I just, I just felt, I felt, I felt, you know, I have always felt Mexicano, you know. And my family doesn't. My family, they, they just, they are good people. But they are not cause oriented. Whatever it is, I don't know, but they never, you know… They just… And, and they were good Christian people. They, they would, you know, do within the confines of whatever organized religions do good, they would do good. And, and they were good people. But to say let's follow the raza, you know, it would just never occur to them. Never, it was not part of their thinking. How it got into my mind? The only thing I can attribute it to is just running the streets in the barrio, you know. What else could it be? I don't know. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. All right so, how did you stay alive after you got the first paycheck and had to move to Austin? Mr. CruzIt, it… Dr. Gutiérrez:Where did you live; who did you live with? Mr. CruzI, well I, you know, I had some money. I had made some money in the grocery business and from 1966 the money I had made in the grocery business slowly disappeared. In 1972, that was when I realized that my kids were getting older, I couldn't afford that luxury anymore. I mean, I loved the process. I had dominated the process. I, I never… Most of the legislation that I passed was controversial legislation. Minimum wage, farm worker legislation, housing for, transportation for migrants. And it was all controversial legislation. And I managed to pass it. I never introduced a bill like that that I didn't eventually pass. But, and so, I mastered the system. But I couldn't afford it. Couldn't afford it. My kids were growing up. I saw I had to do something. I had to move up or more out. And that's when I ran for state treasurer in 1972. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, before you get there, tell me how, how you managed to, to, with only ten sure votes… Mr. CruzLet me, let me tell you about… Dr. Gutiérrez:…get anything done? Mr. CruzLa marcha; the march, the progress; because a lot of people… Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. Cruz…you know. In 1966, after the runoff, we were, we had a headquarters in Magnolia, right across from the Catholic Church there, the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And, somebody had had a little store front there that had been converted from a house at one time. And it had been a Mexican bakery. Anyway, after the election we had celebrated. It was about one, two in the morning. Things were dying down. And John Castillo, who is now a city council member, and some other guys that were helping me in the campaign said, " Hey Lauro, we want to talk to you about, about some abuses going on in, in Rio Grande City with the farm workers." And I said, " Oh man…" I said, " Man, it's two in the morning." I said, " OK, let's have a quick committee meeting and talk about it and let's call it a day." So, we had a quick committee meeting in the back room there. And they were talking about how they had some appeals for help, that the Rangers were mistreating the, the farm workers down there. And, and so we decided, this is the whole keg, let's do this. Let's send a committee down there from Houston to drive down to Rio Grande City and find out what's going on. OK. That's what we concluded that night. It was now three in the morning and we needed to go, you know. So the next day, some of those guys got in a car, it was a Saturday night, they went, they got in the car the next day and they drove to Rio Grande City. They had to do it on the weekend because, you know, everybody worked. So, they went down there and they checked it out and you know, they met with Nelson… Dr. Gutiérrez:Gene Nelson. Mr. CruzGene Nelson. And, and they came back and they said, " Man, it's bad down there. Man, those people are just scared to death." So then they said, " Well let's… /" You know, they sent another car load of guys down there to, to, to Rio Grande. And there was some more talk about what can we do to help, and so forth. That's a long ways from Rio Grande City to Houston, but it was being done. Had a Jewish fellow by the name of Walter Katz that was very helpful. Walter Katz and I and Barbara Jordan had worked together in Wide Horizons, and that's how he became part of our group. So, they went down there again and, and they said, " Maybe we could," you know, " do something," you know. To take food or whatever. So about the third trip down there, I went down there. I was the, the state representative elect at that time. Dr. Gutiérrez:No Republican opponent? Mr. CruzNo, no. I, it, it was tantamount to, tantamount to being elected. Dr. Gutiérrez:Back then it was one party dominance. Democrats. Mr. CruzOne party dominance and you got elected. So, I was the, in effect the party. Anyway, went, we went down there and we drove into Rio Grande City. And there was Gene Nelson, what was his name? Eugene Nelson wasn't it? And he was crossing the street and he waved at us. And so, they had already knew him. So we stopped over and talked for a while and everything. And we were trying to figure out what can we do to help these guys, you know. So anyway, it was decided that what we would do… There was Father Gonzales, used to be the, you know, that church that I mentioned that was across from our headquarters, he was the, the, the, one of the priests there. And so, we, they got him involved. And we….. Dr. Gutiérrez:Antonio. Mr. CruzAntonio Gonzales. We got him involved in the march. And there was another very active priest, minister, Baptist minister, by the name of James Novarro. We got him involved. And so, we were down there. And it was decided that to, to demonstrate, we were going to march from Rio Grande City to San Juan and we, you know, we would march to San Juan. And then, let me tell you, I was tired. We marched to San Juan. We got to San Juan and everybody packed into this, into this room. It wasn't in the church. It was in a room there, sort of a recreation room or something, and I was tired. I, it was so full of people and I just, I just, I said, " I am going to wait out here." You know, Father Gonzales is going to sit there and rave and you know, raise cane about he's doing this and doing that and then Reverend Novarro, if you don't let him talk, if you let him pray, he'll get his speech in, you know. God rest his soul. Anyway, I'm sitting out by the window. I am just tired leaning up against the window listening to what's going on inside and Father Gonzales…. I'm sitting there with blistered feet, just walking from Rio Grande City, and he's sitting there saying, the justice, the power of the people, you know, all of that stuff, you know. And, and I'm sitting there listening, you know. And he says, " Let's go and march from here to Austin." And man, my, my heart almost dropped. What in the heck is he talking about? He was going to march all the way to Austin. And we, you know, once he made that big statement what we were going to do, well, you are committed, right? So… Dr. Gutiérrez:So, the march route got accidentally extended in a moment of emotion? Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. It was like, you know, Father Gonzales, um, just said we were going to… this is what we are going to demonstrate. We are going to march to Austin now. So, that's how the, the ( not audible) got started to Austin. And what we were doing in Houston, with David and, and John Castillo and a whole bunch of David, Dolly Ortiz, and a bunch of people, we were, we were… Dr. Gutiérrez:Now, did you say Idalia or Dolly? Mr. CruzDolly Ortiz. Dr. Gutiérrez:Dalio? Mr. CruzDolly. Dolly. Dolly, her… Dr. Gutiérrez:Is that a female? Mr. CruzYeah. Female. Dr. Gutiérrez:Like a doll Dolly? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzCalled her Dolly. That was David Ortiz's wife. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzAnd so… Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, all of these people are PASO members. Are you involved with the PASO chapter there? Mr. CruzOh yeah. I was involved with the PASO chapter. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, PASO goes all the way back to '60. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, when did you hook up with them? Were you in the precinct chair? Mr. CruzI hooked up when I ran for precinct chair is when I hooked up. Dr. Gutiérrez:And you stayed with them after that? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Did you go to Crystal City in '63? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Oh. Mr. CruzNo, no. Not Crystal City. I went to, to Del Rio. Dr. Gutiérrez:That's '68. Mr. CruzThat's later. Yeah, that's later. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. OK. So, but the farm worker's strike was the first one you ventured out of Houston and go do something statewide in this? Mr. CruzYeah. Exactly. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzYeah. So, we went, we came back to Houston and you know what was needed was food, supplies to keep the farm worker…. Money! Raise, raising money. And so, I would join the march, you know, off and on or they, they marched up from, from, from San Juan up through Edinburgh and then from Edinburgh up to San Antonio. Then I joined them in San Antonio again. And then from San Antonio I joined them in, in New Braunfels. Dr. Gutiérrez:Oh, you were there for that confrontation? Mr. CruzFor the confrontation, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, tell me your version. Mr. CruzWell, my version was simply that, that, that…. John Connelly, you know… It was funny, you know, because John, John Connally… A lot of people may not see it my way, but I thought he was a little pompous, you know. And, and it's like we were below him, you know. I… You… I'm the governor and I set up the meeting. You come when I say. And, and you got, we ended up with about twenty two thousand people there. And they…. Was in the papers… It was a major march for that time. And so, he should have picked up on that. And he… We had asked him, when I say we, it's you know Father Gonzales and Reverend Novarro… And, and we weren't getting much labor support at that time. And so he decided, he, he, he asked Ben Barns to come with him to, to meet the, the marchers in New Braunfels. And he asked Preston Smith and Preston Smith said, " They don't want to see me. They want to see you," you know, " They are asking for you." But Ben Barns, you know, he was his protégé, so he came down there. And it was so funny because… Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, did Wagonner Carr help you? Mr. CruzI don't remember Wagonner Carr being in on it. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzHe might have been there. Anyway, when, when, when he came up to talk to Father Gonzales, Father Gonzales shoved a cross in his face, you know. And, and his reaction was… It wasn't the cross, but it was something being thrust in his face. And to me, what it reminded me of is, you know, when in the vampire movies where, where somebody thrusts a cross and the vampire backs off, you know. And this is where they caught him in a, in a picture. They caught him in a picture where he was backing off from the cross, you know. And it was the exact reaction that you would get in a vampire movie. Anyway, he came there and you know, he's, he made his little pitch that, you know, he was going to do this and that and that he would not lead us to the capital and that. Anyway. After that we, we went on to the University of St. Edward's. That's where our next, next stop was, at St. Edward's University. At that point is when labor took over. They had the money; they were providing with the strike fees and the food and, and they kind of just took over. Which it wasn't a big deal, but it really kind of like they should have let, they should have let, you know, our people continue to take more of a lead. Not just start telling us, you know, this is, this guy will speak, that guy will speak, and… Dr. Gutiérrez:But hasn't it been, been that way while this coalition on a statewide basis held? Labor has always said what's best for Mexicans. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:And, and their labor leaders, their Mexican-Americans are the ones that take the lead. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:The Pancho Medranos, the Paul Montemayors, and so on. Mr. CruzI, I think that, well, I, I was talking to a labor leader one time and these, these are good people. But I understand how it is and they don't seem to want to admit it. Maybe they do more today than they did then. But I would say to them, I says, you know, I.... " My commitment is to my people. Your commitment is to our people too, but first to labor." And they didn't like that, you know. But that's true. They had to, you know. If they wanted to continue working and drawing a salary from labor, they had to make their first priority the labor movement and then the Raza, and then the Mexicanos. Because that's just the way, that's, that's called the bread and butter end of the business. And labor could have taken a different position and given them more freedom, but that's just the way it works, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Well, before the march story I had asked you how did you craft the votes? How did you get things out of committee? With only ten folks that you… Are your sure votes, how in the world did you do this? Very conservative Democrats…. Mr. CruzThe first, the first year I was a freshman there, I came up here to change the world to be honest with you. I came up here, you know, we, I am an ex-Marine; I'm an American citizen; you know, we are going to push through. And what I hit is a brick wall. And what… That's the system. And when I backed off after the first session, after zero batting average, I said, " Well, wait a minute." I reassessed this thing and I said, " Now that's how this thing works. OK." So I said,… Well, just because I am a Mexicano and because I am a liberal, that doesn't mean I'm stupid and that they have all the brains. " I can do this. This is a one-on-one kind of thing." Give you an example. I had one guy that was from Dallas and he was not ever going to vote for a minimum wage. And I would approach him every day and I'd say, " John," I said, " are you going to vote for minimum wage?" This is my second term. I said, " Are you going to vote for minimum wage?" He said, " Get out of here," you know. And every day I would approach him that way. And that, that year it so happened that the big issue of liquor by the drink was up, it had been up many times, but, you know, one more time. It had always failed. So, one morning I went through my ritual, you know, " Hey John, you going to vote on minimum wage?" And, and I originally turned away and started to walk away, which is, you know… I knew he was going to say, " Get out of here," you know. And, and he says, Well… And I stopped! I said, " Well what?" He says, " Well, how are you going to vote on liquor by the drink?" And I said, " Well, I really don't know about that," you know. He said, " Well, you vote, if you vote for liquor by the…." He was from Dallas. He said, " You can vote for liquor by the drink, I'll maybe vote for, give you a vote on minimum wage." And I said, " Well, let me think about it John." My God, if I voted against liquor by the drink in Houston, I'd have been shot, you know. " Let, let me think about it." So I, I came back after a while and said, " You know what John? You got a deal. Let's do it." And that's how you get those votes. One at a time. And the other thing is, you see, Mexicanos in the past, up until that point, there was something about the way they dealt with the Anglo people, a little bit on the subservient side. And I never approached it that way. I approached it as an equal, you know. And, and you know, you can be conservative or you can be whatever you want to be, but otherwise you are man on there, you know. And we had opinions. You have opinions. And it's not, there's not going to be a, a, a, an unleveled playing field, psychologically, anyway. And so, you would just work these people. You find out they're human beings. And, you know, you can't get a lot of people to get off that conservative kick with a shotgun. No way you are going to do it. But, other people, after awhile, you know, you, you massage them, you vote here, vote there… You can sign a… You can't give them what, what they want, but there are other ways to, to work the, the psychology, the overall system. And build you up a, a, a…. You finally build up a, enough vote to get it passed. And during that first session, the other thing was that I had tacked on an amendment for minimum wage on a bill that was, that was totally, not totally unrelated, but it was only related to the minimum wage. But I tacked on an amendment and forced a vote. Ben Barnes laid it up on the, on the, on the, he laid it up on the board like a flash. Well, the flash was sixty nine votes. So, there were a lot of people that said, " Well, you know, a lot of people are talking a big game about being against minimum wage, but somewhere this guys come up with sixty nine votes. He's not that far away from seventy six." So, I got that on a, on a, on a motion to, to get a, a record vote. And even though that record vote was a flash, I mean, he didn't leave it up there. I mean it was like a stop light, you know. Usually they will run up the vote and leave it there. This one went chook, chook, but the record is still there. Anyway, that kind of encouraged people the second time around because they said, " Hey! Well, you know, there is a lot of people over here." This is not, this is not just some wild aberration, you know. So, you build, building it up like that, you know, and working it and working it and working the system. Dr. Gutiérrez:And the committees, because before it gets on the floor you got to get this thing out of committee. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:And those are unfriendly committees. Mr. CruzUnfriendly committees. Dr. Gutiérrez:And you probably didn't have a lot to trade. You were brand new. Mr. CruzNo, I didn't have a lot to trade, but what happened was that there, there are ways to work a committee, and I'll give you an example. I knew that the chairman was, I won't call him an alcoholic, but he, he, he really was, liked to drink. And… Dr. Gutiérrez:You knew exactly what he liked to drink. Mr. CruzYeah. So what I… And, you know, you can't, you can't keep liquor on, on the grounds, but you know, a lot of people did anyway. But I was trying to relate to the chairman, right. So, I went to the chairman, this is about eleven o'clock at night, in the committee meeting, and I said, " You know what? I sure need a drink." And I've never been a big drinker. You know, I've had, I've drank my share of beer, but I never been, you know, boracho (drunk). " I really need a drink" And this guy looks at me like you know… Dr. Gutiérrez:Me too. Mr. CruzYeah. You know, he says, " Why don't you bring a bottle? We'll go up to my office." I said, " OK." So you know, he passes the, the, the chair, the chair over to the vice chairman and we go upstairs. " Come on," he says, " let's go." He's a conservative Democrat. We go up to his office and this is, this is…. I wasn't expecting this. He has these little foam cups. And he has got some gin. And he poured about half a cup of gin, which is all right, and he pours himself about a half a cup of gin. And what the next thing is what really caught me off guard, was he raises his glass and he says, " Bottoms up." I just said, " OK. Bottoms up. /" Half, half a shot of, of about… Dr. Gutiérrez:No. How many? Half a cup…. Mr. CruzYeah. So, boy it just hit me like a, like a, like a heart attack, cardiac arrest. So, he says, " How is that?" " Oh man, that was great! Thanks." You know, we went down… We were walking down and I said say, " Jack, what do you think about a subcommittee like this on my belt?" And he said…. I had, I had one conservative, one liberal, and one Mexicano conservative, OK? I figured I could pull that Mexicano conservative across, OK? Had one liberal, one conservative, and one Mexicano conservative, but I figured I could pull that as a subcommittee. So, he says, " Oh, one thing. Why don't we," you know… " I can't report that bill out. I mean," you know, " when the press… We, we're going to be here until about one o'clock in the morning and the press will dwindle away, and then," you know, " we'll, I'll, I'll lay it. I'll lay it out. That's fine." And I showed him in that committee… And he was going for that…. So I knew who he was going to appoint on the subcommittee going in. But he thought that he had no problems because he felt that two conservatives, even though he was a Mexicano, that he still had it locked up. So, we went inside, the bill was reported to subcommittee and these two guys reported, reported, reported it out. And the rest is history, you know. I got the committee. What happens on a, on a, most of the time on a committee, if the, if the subcommittee reports it out, you, it's like getting a recommendation from a committee. You've got, you've got the edge then, you know. So that's how I got it out of committee. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, in '72 you can't afford this. You, you're facing the Diana Davila [a current State Representative from Houston that is stepping down] situation where she, she… Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:…can't go any further. She is either going to go to school, become a lawyer, or PhD, or get married. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:In the meantime, you've got to make money. Mr. CruzThat's right. Dr. Gutiérrez:So you got to make money in '72. And what did you decide to do? Mr. CruzI ran, I ran for state treasurer in '72. I said, " I either win or lose, move up or move out. One of the two." And, and I lost, you know, against Jesse James. I gave a thought a couple of times of, I said, " How can, how can I beat a guy with a name like Jesse James?" Maybe I ought to change my name to Pancho Villa, you know. Maybe I'd be a laughing stock, but at least little, little…. Dr. Gutiérrez:How did the party leadership treat you or labor at that point or the guys in the Valley? Mr. CruzI could not get an endorsement from labor. It, it, it was, Hank Brown, Hank Brown had, had left office and a fellow by the name of, of Henry somebody who had been the dep…, the assistant AFL-CIO leader, director or vice president or whatever they call them… And so apparently he was not very popular with labor because he, he was there two years. One or two years. Whatever the term is. And, and he was ousted. And, and Hank Brown had been there forever and then they ousted him in favor of Harry Hubbard. But during that struggle, I fell into the cracks in that struggle and couldn't even get… Even after having passed the minimum wage, even after carrying, you know, having a ninety nine point nine percent voting record with COPE, I could not get an endorsement. Because I fell into that, you know… They were dividing about who was going to vote for which leader for labor, and so forth. So, I fell into that and couldn't get an endorsement. Not sure that I could have won even with that endorsement. I would have gotten a, a greater percentage. I ended up with about, I think twelve percent of the vote. Dr. Garcia once ran all the numbers down. I've got it somewhere. I think it was still the largest percentage of votes ever turned out for a candidate for public office for Mexicanos up to that time. It was a little more than, than Ramsey got that year and but anyway, it was still a low percentage. But it would have been a little better with labor's endorsement. Labor endorsed, when they endorse you, they, they put money into your campaign. When they recommend you, they just put your name and picture into their paraphernalia, you know, that goes out. I couldn't even get a recommendation. It was, I mean, bad. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, did you have to give up your seat or you just didn't run again? Mr. CruzNo, I just did not run again. I ran for state treasurer. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. So back home, by that time, maybe you don't agree with this assessment, but, but had Lionel Castillo already built the beginning of the machine or, or you had built the machine? Mr. CruzWell, Lionel Castillo was just coming into town about that time. Just… Dr. Gutiérrez:So, then you were the one? Mr. CruzI guess he had been there about a year. Dr. Gutiérrez:You were the one that had the, the group with all of the PASO people and everybody else? Mr. CruzOh yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, are you the one responsible for Ben Reyes? Mr. CruzWell, in a sense I am because when I left he ran. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, it wasn't quite that innocent was it? Somebody had to say well OK, who is this guy or you had to tell somebody I'm not going to run again. Mr. CruzRight. Well, I didn't tell anybody that I wasn't going to run again until almost filing day because I was trying to determine, you know, whether I was going to be able to do it or not. And so, the first time that the community knew that I was not filing was when I filed for, for state treasurer. I was playing it pretty close. Because, you know, just, all, all the other political reasons wasn't, you know… Whatever your, your, your strategy is to get the best vote, to get the best turnout, to, you know… To think about it until the last minute, you know. To not encourage other people to, to file before I'm ready to finally make up my mind, you know, to, to run for my, the job that I was leaving. And, and Ben had come back, I believe from Viet Nam at about that time. A young kid about twenty years old, twenty one years old and very angry. I can, I can understand that. I could sympathize with his feelings. And he had decided he was going to run against me whether I ran or not. It didn't concern me because I, I didn't think that, you know. After I got elected the first time, I ran unopposed, you know. I had, I had pretty good, strong, strong, deep, deep inroads into the Hispanic community, you know. Nobody was going to be endorsed by the Hispanic there, you know, against me. If, if I'd run, I would, I would've beaten him, you know. I don't think that would have been a, a big thing. I just couldn't afford to do it anymore. Dr. Gutiérrez:Uh huh. Mr. CruzJust finances. And after, after I lost that race, I ran that race sort of, I mean, just to, nothing but, nothing but effort. No money. Dr. Gutiérrez:How did they receive you in El Paso and in the Valley, in Laredo? Traditional Mexicano strongholds, did they receive you with welcome arms and did you carry or did they just say well….? Mr. CruzNo, not every…. Dr. Gutiérrez:Victor Morales type, you know, go, go away. You don't have a chance. Mr. CruzNo, everybody was cordial, but unbelieving. They, they didn't believe it could happen. And part of, part of winning any race is, you know, even with the people, you know, that they, if they don't believe it can happen, then they probably won't turn out to vote, right? And so, that hurt. But I think that the cordiality was there. You know, you go to strongholds like Laredo and to Brownsville and places like that. I tell you what I did find out when I ran statewide. I found out that seventy percent of the people in this state was something else other than Black, Mexicano, liberal. Dr. Gutiérrez:And labor. Mr. CruzI, I found that out. And you know, you, if you travel the state and you are in a car, you've got a long time to hit these towns and you'd go and open up a telephone book. You might find one Gomez or one Hernandez, but boy, that, that's kind of…. You always know it, but it's a rude awakening in reality because you know you've got to go out and convince a lot of people to vote for you that have no tie or no… And, you know, Mexicanos at that time, you know, we weren't supposed to get elected. It's the attitude you know. You can't do the job. You are not going to vote for somebody that can't do the job, you know. I, I know that he can't do the job because, you know, I know Juan that paints my house. And I know him that cleans my this… And that's the mental attitude. And they ain't going to vote for you until, you know, we change this slowly changing attitude. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, what happened after…. Here you are no job, not even a poor paying state representative job. What… Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:…did you do next? You, you joined the governor's office? Mr. CruzYeah. I, I got involved in Governor Briscoe's race. He was the, the Democrat, and he was basically a banker, rancher. I don't think he fully yet appreciated the fact that you needed a Mexicano, you know, on your staff. But I, I was a former state rep. I had a, I knew some conservatives there in Houston who I was friendly with on a personal basis. And that's how I got involved in that race. I think that later on we saw some changes, you know, happening there. I was, I was, I found a lot of gratification in serving as the first assistant to a governor. Then, it had been another person who had worked for the gov, for a governor by the name of, oh I forget his name right offhand. Out of Del Rio. I think he worked for Governor Smith for about six weeks. Dr. Gutiérrez:Chris Alderete? Mr. CruzNo, no. He later went on to run part of the EEO job here in Texas. He sold, not of banking in Del Rio, selling insurance. Can't think of his name. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, he'll remain nameless for awhile. Mr. CruzSuper, super guy. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, what was that like being the, the first and the only? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:You must have gotten everything on your desk including all the Mexican problems which was Raza Unida, Ramsey Muniz, and, and others. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. But, you know, the thing with, with Ramsey Muniz and Raza Unida was something that I sympathized with. I mean, oh, I didn't agree with their, their, their approach or maybe it wasn't that I didn't, didn't agree with their… There are two approaches to do it in my opinion. And I think they are both necessary sometimes. One, you got to shake the tree. And two, you got to shake the tree and pick up the apples. And a lot of times when people shake the tree, the apples fall. But the people that, that are opposed to you for shaking the tree won't let you pick up the apples. And, and, and, and, and I was in a better position to pick up the apples. In other words, I was working from within the system and… But let me tell you, I, I, I knew, I knew and felt what, what, what, what that movement was all about. You know, it's the discrimination, the, the harassment, the mistreatment, the, the second class citizen, all that, you know. And sure you feel it, you know. If you, if you really feel for the people you feel it. And you have to sympathize with these guys getting, finally upset with the system and say we are going after them, you know. Going to war with them. And, and so, I was, I was, because I was already in, in, on the inside, I was fighting my battles from the inside. But I heard people say bad things about these guys, you know. I would say, you know, they have a reason. They… I sympathize. I know how they feel. They are frustrated, you know. We, we go to war, we, we fight this country's wars, we, we do everything else for this country and then we are treated like we don't belong anymore, you know. So, I think there was a lot of, lot of, there was a lot of anger, a lot of anger, a lot of frustration. And, and I think that it…. One thing that, that, that Raza Unida movement did, it, it, it forced the Democratic Party to win their first governorship without a majority. And it may not mean a lot to the public, but to the people who are running for office, they feel that. They don't like the idea of being elected without a majority. The Raza Unida denied Governor Briscoe a majority. And, but, this was deserving because you know, if, if the Democratic party had been doing what they should have been doing in the beginning with, they would never have been any reason for Raza Unida to exist. So, you know, the party owes it to themselves for their own…. And, in fact, it goes on. It's like you don't understand even today some of the things that the party… I mean, it's like I used to say to folks, you know, I says, " Look, if I'm dealing with a white liberal and I'm dealing with a conservative, white conservative," I said, " I don't want the white liberal to tell me what to do. I mean, I don't want to just trade masters," you know. " I mean, if I'm not at the table with you as a liberal, then I have no reason to be with you. I mean, I'm not just going to be with you because you are liberal. I mean, I'm going to be with you because you are liberal, because I sat at the same table on a level playing field." A lot of liberals don't, don't understand that. They say, " Why don't you start voting with them?" Then they want you, then they want to, they want to be able to tell you then. Well, what's the difference? You are being told anyway. So anyway, a lot of people don't understand that. And you know, even liberals don't understand that. They think it's because now you're, you know, with them that now they have a right to tell you what to do. Dr. Gutiérrez:Let's talk about two things. One I'm just curious because you had the inside track and I know that you were there because the photographs are there. But the other, there is no record. It's just whatever, whatever good lessons you will give us. What was it like to be the one and only inside the governor's office making recommendations, trying to shape policy, trying to influence him in his thinking? And Janey, his wife, was a very strong personality, and all the others around him who had more access and more time than you with him, how, how is that level of operation? Mr. CruzWell, it, it's, in this case, it was good because he very seldom interfered with what you did. For example, when I first went to work for him I decided to put pressure on every state agency on their hiring practices. So, I sent a letter under my signature as a special assistant to the governor asking for the record of every Hispanic employed in the state government from every agency and what level they were working at. And I started getting this information…. I want you to know I did nothing with it. I did nothing with it. But this was somebody looking over their shoulders. And they were, you know, they were feeling the pressure because nobody had ever questioned who they were hiring, and so forth. So, except for one, one head of a state agency, one guy complained. He went to the governor and said, " Governor, got this letter from your assistant." He says, " It serves you right." And Governor Briscoe said, " Well…. Dr. Gutiérrez:How many do you have? Mr. Cruz…answer the letter. He must have a reason for asking." So, he could have said, called me up there and said, " Hey," you know, " what are you doing?" You know. But he didn't. He just said, he told the, the head of this agency, " Well, answer the man's letter. He must have a reason." I never asked him permission to do this. So, I did a lot of things on my own and, and the governor did not step in and say you can't do this and you can't do that. Now there was an effort, you know, since I was there… And there was two of us there by the way. But Rudy Flores, of course, Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, but that's Briscoe's…. Mr. CruzYeah. That was Briscoe's…. Dr. Gutiérrez:The popular son, up until recently, when he booted him out for Briscoe, Jr. Mr. CruzYeah. That, that was the only, that was the… To him that was the thing that he ought to do to, to, for the Mexicanos, you know. I mean, I mean, to do, to go after the vote, he…. The only thing he knew was Rudy Flores, you know. That guy works in his bank. In any case, I was able to do a lot of things. Let me give you another example. I can give you many, many examples like this. There was a young lady who took the, the state exam for a beautician, and they refused to give her her license. She passed the exam. And the reason they refused to give her her license is because this regulatory body also certified the schools, the top.... Dr. Gutiérrez:Cosmetology? Mr. Cruz....cosmetology, yeah. So, they found out that after she had gone through the course and had passed the state test, that this was not a certified school. So, she came to me from some indirect reference from somebody and, and she said this is what happened. And I said, " Well, that's not right. It's not your fault. It's their fault. /" They didn't.... " It's their business to keep these people certified. And then, on top of that, you passed the test." So, I went before the board and I said, I, you know, tried to be very calm about it. And I said, " This lady, young lady, has done everything that she can to obey the law, to pass, to study, to pass the exam. She's passed your state exam. /" And I said, " Let me assure you that the governor would not look on this very kindly because he wants to be fair about these things." And they were saying well, " We don't think we can do this. And the rules... And blah, blah, blah." And I said, " OK. I want you all to think about this. And I want you all to let me know what your decision is." About a week later, they called me and said, " Mr. Cruz I want you to know..." they said , " that we are going to go ahead and approve her license." Well, those are little things, but important to people. That and other people that would not be paid by the state, other Mexicanos that were working for the state and they were, they were, you know, Rudy Davila. I don't know if you know Rudy Davila. Rudy Davila worked for the Community Affairs and he had been there for years working for Captain Taylor who is the state head of the OEO. And, and Rudy comes to me and he says, " Lauro," he says.... " I taught, I trained this guy. Now they are going to promote him over me. I trained him." I saw it. I, I went, I called the man up. He knew who I was by then. You know, they knew who I was. I said, " Captain Taylor, I would like to meet with you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock." " Yes sir," you know, " I would be glad to." So, I went over there. And funny, and, and.... I sat down and he said, " I hope you don't mind if we record this conversation." I said, " Captain Taylor, what you and I have to say here today will not require a tape recorder." And he said, " Oh? OK." So he turns around and he cuts it off. He already had it on. And this was his argument: " You are accusing me of being discriminatory." And I said, " No, I'm not accusing you of being discriminatory. What I am saying all simply is this, is that you are promoting a man who was trained by this other man, and he's been here longer than he has. And if he trained this man, obviously he can do the job. Well, what's the problem?" He said, " Well, I'm not discriminatory. If you would look at the, the people that I have given grants to and the people that we hire." And he was giving me examples. And he said, " Look, I hired ninety something percent Mexicanos in this area." You know where he was showing me? Dr. Gutiérrez:Brownsville? Mr. CruzYeah. Brownsville. McAllen. I said, " Give me a break, man! You know that's not a good argument." But I said, I said, " Well, who else would you hire if they didn't hire these people down there?" Anyway.... Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, there's some Blacks in Harlingen. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. When you go to Harlingen, you find some, some Republicans that and some Anglos that, that, you know.... Ninety percent of the population is Hispanic. And if they haven't.... They finally got around to electing a few people to the school board. Anyway, those were the kind of things that were, you know.... They were very gratifying because you are in a position... And Briscoe never questioned me. He never questioned me. The only time Briscoe ever questioned me was when a little incident came up and the press, the press came after me, really. And it was an oversight on my part basically because of the secretary. She had put, you know.... When they put letters to sign for you that you've already looked at and drafted and then they finally put them on your desk for signature? Well, they put them up where all you had to do is just sign, sign, sign, sign, you know. You know they cover the letter. So, one of those letters got out. And it was a letter that was being sent out to, for a fund raiser to help me pay me off my campaign stuff. And, and it was fifteen letters. That's it. And so, one of them came back. Somebody, poor address or something. And somebody in the governor's office cut out the time frame when it came back, you know, to make sure they would know who, who was doing it, and then they sent it to the press. Sent it to the Houston Chronicle, the Houston Post, Austin American Statesman, up in Dallas, the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, even.... Everybody got a letter. Copy to the governor, copy to me. No, not a copy to me. They sent me.... The assistant called me and they said, " You better come up here. I need to talk to you." And so he shows me the letter. And I said, " Yeah, I sent that letter out, but it was not supposed to be sent out on the governor's stationery. It was supposed to have been sent out on my personal stationery." So I said.... And he said, " How many letters did you send out?" I said, " Fifteen of them." So he says, " Well, the governor wants to talk to you about it." So I waited a while and the governor said, " What, what happened there?" And I said, " Well, it was an oversight. It was supposed to have been sent out on my personal stationery. And the secretary just lined them all up and I signed them. It was just one of those things that happen." And he said, " Well, go down to the bookkeeper and, and ask him how much it would take to reimburse the whole amount of money that, that went out." So, I went to the bookkeeper and I told him what happened, and he said, " OK, let me add it up." He added it up. And he says, " It's a dollar and ninety one cents." I wrote him a check, gave it to him, forgotten about it. Four weeks later, here comes the reporter. And he was vicious. I said, " Listen, this was an oversight." I said, " It was no.... This was what happened and that's it." But I mean, they were, they were really, really there. They were trying to get.... And somebody had said, quoted this person as saying , " We are going to get those two Mexicans." Dr. Gutiérrez:You and Rudy? Mr. CruzYeah. Me and Rudy. And, and the guy that supposedly had said it, to have said that was a guy that.... Was finally the guy that, that had suspected of, of being the one who turned this letter in. Came to the governor's office, the letter returned to the governor's office. Went through the mail room. Whoever was in that mail room got, got into it. But those were the kind of things you have to be concerned about. And, and I was always very concerned about it. Even when I was a state rep, the state, governor's office, running state agencies, I was concerned about it because you know, if your name is Rodriguez, Gonzales, they are going to come after you. Cruz, you know, they are going to come after you. And, and they know exactly where you might make a mistake because they have been cheating for years. Travel, telephones, and that's where you know, you, you.... And I said I'm not going to do it. I, I'll pay out of my own pocket or whatever because I know that they are looking at me. They are looking at me. Waiting for, for me to slip. And they know where all the, all the, the, the pitfalls are, they know where all the opportunities are because they have been stealing for too many years. You know, we're, we're, we're being attacked by the masters. So, with that attitude, you know.... That's how I managed to stay out of trouble. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, how much money did you owe from that treasury race or accumulation of....? Mr. CruzNot very much. Not very much. In a statewide race, I, I..... People spend more in a, in.... I think about seven thousand bucks I spent totally. Dr. Gutiérrez:Oh. Mr. CruzAnd I still owed a few bucks. Maybe, mostly it was just plain old running all over the state. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, the other incident I wanted to ask you about.... Because of the thing that's about.... Photographs. Because your, your face is in those pictures.... Is the takeover of the state capital. Where the governor was accosted in his own office. And was finally taken out by the back door. And then all of the offices were then occupied by protesters. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:And you were part of that negotiating team. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:What went on on the inside because I know you were on the staff, so you had to be there? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:But then all of a sudden, here they bring Matt Garcia and some other Mexican legislators..... Showed up there trying to, to, to negotiate with, with the protesters. What went on on the inside? Mr. CruzWell, basically it was a lot of conversation about how to handle the situation. All the people were in there. And they were all, all in there, you know. They were saying, you know, that, you know, " Governor, you don't have to talk to these people. You don't have to do this." And, and, and finally the governor asked me what I thought. I said, " Governor...." I said, " Let me tell you....." I said, " You are the governor of all the people of Texas. Now, you don't know these folks anymore than you do any other citizen, but you do owe them as much as any other citizen. So now, what you need to do is you need to, we need to find when you can meet with them, and then meet with them. Set up an appointment to meet with them. You, you don't have to meet with them now. You, I mean, you are the governor, but you have to meet with them. You can't.... You got to treat them like any other citizen that wants to meet with you." And it's funny because about that.... Mark.... About that point, Mark White broke in and he says, " Governor, that's just what I said. The governor looked at him like...." You know. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah, right. Mr. CruzYeah. Yeah. You know, he just said that. There was about, you know, I forget..... There, there was several assistants to the governor there. Rose, Mark White, myself... Dr. Gutiérrez:Pernell? Mr. CruzRichard Pernell. Yeah. And, but he finally bought the fact that, that, that, that he, you know, he needed a meeting. And I think at that point is when and he, he called Gus in, Gus Gar.... Dr. Gutiérrez:Matt. Mr. CruzMatt, Matt Garcia. And, and then that's when we sat in that room and, and talked about, you know, when can, when, when would be a time to meet and talk about this thing, to set up a meeting with the governor? Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, he got called by some women over in Lubbock. Mr. CruzI lost track after that. Because after that, that meeting I went back to my office. And I don't know whatever.... I don't know if he ever met with anybody or anything or the meeting was set up, but there should have been some follow up. I don't know whoever did it or what, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez:Why weren't the protesters arrested? Mr. Cruz I don’t think that was ever a consideration that I heard of anyway, that I heard of. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, that was the first time the whole Capitol was occupied and taken over...... Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:....and the flag. You’re going down and other flags torn up. I.... It was heavy duty. And the Rangers and DPS [Department of Public Safety] were there. But they... Somebody had instructed them to just be tourist guides...... Mr. CruzYeah. I don't know to be honest with you. There was never any, any, any conversation considering, not, you know, forcing people out. I think that would have been a big mistake anyway. Dr. Gutiérrez:Yes. It would have been a mistake that was anticipated, but did not happen. All right. Well so, how long did you stay with, with the governor's staff? Mr. CruzI stayed with him for six years. About the second year after I was with the governor he asked me to wear two hats. He said, " I want you to continue being an assistant to me. And I also want you to run a commission called the Greater South Texas Cultural Base and Commission." Which is a bill that had been passed the pervious session, and it was designed to bring economic development to twenty two counties in South Texas beginning around Del Rio and going all the way to, to Brownsville, up through Corpus Christi and back up to..... Oh, I forget the northern counties.... But twenty two counties. And it, it was a good idea. We accomplished a lot of good things. But the problem was that the legislature always resisted helping one end of the state, and not helping the other. When, when the arguments were made for the Appropriations Committee.... I went before the Appropriations Committee and.... to get funding for this commission. And Beau Heathly and some other folks were opposed to it. And there were other friends of the governor who were for it only because the governor was for it. Now, when the arguments were made in the Appropriations Committee, they would say, " Well, why South Texas and not..... What about my end? What about," you know, " North Texas?" And so, some, one of the legislators said, explained it this way.... I guess maybe, you know, they communicate in their own language sometimes better than they do with, you know, just the facts. He said, " Look, the reason the governor wants this funded is because you see when you have a sick horse you don't put salve all over the horse. You just put it where the infection is." I mean, that dumb explanation in a, in a, in a, supposedly in an intelligent legislative body. You have to explain to some guy that about putting salve on a horse, you know. But the guy said, " Oh." It's like, " OK, I got you. I understand now." So anyway, he, they, he was ready to vote for the bill then. But they were never committed to putting money behind it as the legislation had called for. We were supposed to get out here, determine what was needed in South Texas, and then you have to put money behind it. Put the money, you know, to, for grants and for development and so forth. And the legislature simply never could bring themselves to put money into the, into that. So, we did the best we could with what we had. Dr. Gutiérrez:Sounds like the governor could have twisted arms if he really wanted to get that funded. He could have really gotten it through. Mr. CruzHe could have done more. I think he could have done more. Again, it goes back to, you know, addressing a problem not totally or thinking maybe you've done enough or, you know. When you are the governor of the state of Texas you have lots of demands on, on, on, on money and, and, and, and.... I would say that the politics comes into, into play, you know. Your own background, if, you know, if you come from a background being a banker and a big rancher you probably don't see the same things or feel the same things that we feel. And so, the priorities change. My priorities don't become his priorities. We, we, we deal with, with people whose mentality is different than ours. And you'd think that it's obvious, but it, apparently it isn't. It takes years for these people to finally understand what the problem is. Dr. Gutiérrez:Now during this time two things also happened. One, one blatantly political, the other not so much, but it was still political. One was the move to change the governor's term from two to four. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:That happened then. And the other was the creation of MAD [Mexican American Democrats] to destroy the Raza Unida party. That, that's the perception of most critics because they didn't understand. The MAD people.... Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:....the, the tree shaking and, and apple catching analogy you used a minute ago. Can you talk a little bit about that? Any, any information that you want to share about that? Mr. CruzBasically, as far as I know, MAD was born and, and, and created out of Houston. Basically, what was his name? Rick Hernandez and Lionel Castillo and, and these guys were the ones that came up with MAD. I'm not, I'm not sure that there was a movement on the part of the overall Democratic party. If it was, it was not, I didn't know anything about it. I think there were a lot of Mexicanos that, that felt that, yeah, they, they agreed with the, with the goals of Raza Unida. But they also felt that they could do the same thing once they got the idea, you know. Once the idea was created that they could form an organization and be more visible in the party than just as, you know. PASO kind of died, had died away. So it was sort, sort of..... What do they call this when you create something for a special purpose and then it dies? In any case, I think that, that the idea partly for, for MAD came from the idea that the Raza Unida had showed them that if you united that you could get more from the party than just individual Mexicanos, you know. So and they probably were encouraged..... I, I, I could see the Democratic structure encouraging that kind of activity, to put the Raza Unida in a, you know, to take away from that. Whether it was a conscience effort, I, I don't know. Dr. Gutiérrez:What about the Zavala County grant? Do you understand or know anything as to the relations between the president of the United States and the governor in denying that grant to Zavala County once it was all approved and ready to be sent off? Mr. CruzWhich is Zavala County? Dr. Gutiérrez:Crystal City. Mr. CruzNo. No. Dr. Gutiérrez:You don't remember anything of that? Mr. CruzWhat grant? Dr. Gutiérrez:It was a farm, well, the farm, farm that the governor said was the beginning of Little Cuba and, and he talked with the president about not sending those funds that had already been approved and Garcia Olivares then said OK, I won't send them. And they didn't send them. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:And that was the end of that. Mr. CruzI heard, I heard very little about that. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzI don't know, you know, what happened there. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Well, then anything else about your political career? You, you've done some other work. What, what was your salary as, as an aide? Mr. CruzAbout three, about three hundred dollars a month. Oh, as an aide to the governor? Dr. Gutiérrez:Yeah. Mr. CruzOh, that was, I started at twenty two thousand a year and from three hundred a month. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, that's a substantial increase, but it's still.... Mr. CruzYeah, it wasn't much, but back in those days it was a good start. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzAnd then they went up to a couple of thousand more about a year later. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Well, did you continue doing that or moved to something else? Both.... You became a lobbyist. Mr. CruzYeah. I became.... Dr. Gutiérrez:I don't want to leave anything out here that you think is important about your political career. Because all these hats are, are.... Mr. CruzAbsolutely. Dr. Gutiérrez:....in, still in the political arena. Mr. CruzYeah. After I left the governor's office, Carlos Truan needed a little help over in the Senate, so he asked me to come over and run his staff. So I did that. And then I did some lobbying after that. And then I was asked to run the, the Texas Good Neighbor Commission. I think that was about, about '80. I, I forget the year, but about '82, '84, around there. And I ran the Good Neighbor Commission until it, right before it, it, it got defunded by Clements. I had already left, you know. There were a lot of politics involved there. Had a, I had a good objective. I had accomplished quite a bit. Not very obvious when it was happening because you were exposing a lot of high school kids through that agency. I mean, several hundred thousand high school kids to the Hispanic culture. And how you measure that impact, it's very difficult. But, you know, it's got to be good because, you know, some of those kids up in North Texas wouldn't know, you know, a sombrero from a taco, you know. And they would get involved and through the high school Spanish classes, they would..... And, and, and then we were their, sort of their, their state agency who sort of helped organize and support the effort. Plus all of the other things that we did in Mexico. But they had a nine member board which is too many people. Mostly retired people. And we had people who would go and take their quarterly reports, and read nothing but those quarterly reports until they came back to the next meeting. The retired people had nothing to do. I had one particular board member who had been on the board for over seven years. He had been appointed now to this next six year term and, and he brought every quarterly report that was ever written as long as he was on the board. This high. And if he disagreed with you, he'd shuffle through his.... " And look, I'll show you that in 1492 that...." You know, his was (not audible), you know. So the board was too big. And, and, you know, just the, the usual politics, you know, at the governor's office. Mark White was the governor at the time. And you still have a lot of people in, in, in coming out of South Texas, Anglos who, who still feel like they should have a commanding voice in our community. And there was one of those folks there working, now for the governor, who felt that way. And who had pretty much decided that he wanted his man running the commission, and not myself. So, he got a new.... He got the governor in, in much more trouble, you know. Man, I can’t begin to tell you. Down in the Valley he thought he was the governor, you know. And he probably knows some of these people. You know, they, they were, they were, I mean, there were fist fights down there with this guy. And governor, Mark White, Governor White had people working for him that left a lot of be desired, left a lot to be desired. No governor deserves that kind of help. Dr. Gutiérrez:When, when do you recall deciding I will never run for office again? I am through with this. I got to make me some money. Mr. CruzWell, I guess I decided that right after, back around, right after I left the Good Neighbor Commission, which was in about '87 or '86. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, how is the world of lobbying? You, you must have been among the first then. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:If not, you were a close second or so because I know Emilio Pena, Emil Pena's been at it for awhile. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Lena Guerrero is a Johnny, Jane, Janie come lately. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:So, were you the first or were you among the first? Mr. CruzI was among the first, particularly independent lobbyists. Dr. Gutiérrez:Right. I mean the other people, it's like investment banking. They hire their Mexican and that's who they send. But they don't owe anything. Mr. CruzThey only hired, they only had about two, two people that even in the, with the, the major corporations, only one was GTE. I forget her name. But she's female. She's been with them a long time. Then there was, Southwestern Bell hired a couple after that. And labor, labor always had people that come up, but then they go back home. Then they have somebody on their staff, you know, who acts somewhat as a lobbyist but not, not, not really, you know. Just representing labor interests both, both in, in when the legislature is in session and when they are off, you know, doing labor activity. So.... Do you remember the old Gray Fox from San Antonio? Dr. Gutiérrez:Henry Munoz. Mr. CruzHenry Munoz, yeah. And people like that, that you know, they're really not lobbyists. They just kind of represent a very narrow interest. And then, but, but then they're part of the labor thing. Independent lobbyists, geez you know, when I started lobbying there, there must have been about, at the most, two others. Two others. Very difficult, very difficult. First of all... Dr. Gutiérrez:Out of how many? Mr. CruzOh, about twenty, twenty two. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. What was so difficult then? Mr. CruzIt's a very lucrative thing. And they don't want to let you in. They won't let you in. They still will not let.... They still have not let us in in, in the sense that you, you take an issue like with, with utilities or let's say an issue with..... Utilities is OK. Well, they will hire one of the major Anglo concerns, lobbyists, and the they'll farm out to, to cover the area, the different bases they will farm out to the Mexicanos. Ten thousand here, twenty thousand there, thirty thousand. But they get the big bite. The half million bucks, you know, they get the big bite. We're still not there yet. Frank Garza and I helped organize the, the Hispanic Lobby. Dr. Gutiérrez:Now, is that an association? Mr. CruzYeah. Well, it's, it's, there is, but it's, it's.... Dr. Gutiérrez:Informal? Mr. Cruzinformal. Dr. Gutiérrez:You, you call it the Hispanic Lobby? Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:Have you talked to the members of the Caucus [Mexican American Legislative Caucus] to address this issue? Because they certainly can say, “I don't want to talk to your guy. You send me a Mexican American lobbyist.” Mr. CruzWell, a lot of them are helpful that way. But it's, it's, it's..... They are there, but, you know, they don't have the big contracts. Let me give you an example. I was lobbying for the City of Houston. And I got about thirty thousand dollars that day. And, but, and there was a, a Black lady who got about thirty thousand dollars a deal, OK. And, but the contract is for two hundred and, two hundred and twenty thousand dollars. So you see, I mean, yeah, we're there, but.... Dr. Gutiérrez:For sixty, wanting to work and then,… Mr. CruzLet Houston give me the contract. Let me go out and hire some Anglo representatives, you know. But we are not there yet. Dr. Gutiérrez:For sixty that they paid out, they got to keep a hundred and sixty. And you did all the work. Mr. CruzThat's right. And so, and any of these, these are guys, heavy guys like.... Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, that's a problem in politics. Sure you got the city council over there looking the other way. And then you got the legislature over here, now taking care of their former friends and colleagues. Mr. CruzAnd, and well they, they, they don't feel that, that..... Maybe they've never felt that they could say, " We want you to give these guys the main contract and let these other folks be the subcontractors." See, maybe they've never made that pitch. Or maybe it's just a corporation saying, " Well geez," you know, " how can we trust a Mexicano with a half million dollar deal?" And then let him..... And it's really not that way, you know. Because we're just as effective or more as anybody else. Dr. Gutiérrez:How do you know or real quick here...... In the heat to, to, to peg that contract and say this is worth thirty thousand? How, how do you go about establishing your fee in, in this arena? Mr. CruzWell, it really isn't established by the, by the person who is on the subcontract. It's established by the guy who's got the contract, whatever he wants to give you. And whatever, what, whatever work he wants you to do. You know, he, he might say, " I just want you to work," you know, " five legislators. And for that I'll give you fifteen thousand dollars," you know. And you, you, you, you work for this guy and this guy and this guy and you know, you may put together, maybe in a session you put together a hundred thousand dollars. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Anything else about lobbying that you want to talk about? Mr. CruzWell, no. I think that basically...... I, I would simply say that we are, we're still not home on that one. The time will come, but it's not...... It may be next session, the following session, when somebody takes the major contract. And as far as I know, I haven't gotten one. Neither have any, any of the other lobbyists that I know of. But they're, they're doing, I mean, they're not starving to death. Lena’s doing better than she ever made as a Railroad Commissioner. And, and maybe it's an evolutionary thing. I don't know. But still we have to push it in that direction. We have to push it. Dr. Gutiérrez:Why did you decide that route as opposed to looking for a Washington appointment or continue to run big agencies? Mr. CruzWell..... Dr. Gutiérrez:Or maybe even cabinet positions, you know? Mr. CruzMostly, you know, I had a family and they were growing up. And I wanted to keep my family here in Austin and, you know, you stay close to the family. They are going to college or they are, you know, growing up. I've just never had a great ambition to go to Washington. I just want, wanted to, you know.... I know people that have gone to Washington. And I've also known how they regretted that they spent their lives, you know, or a major part of their careers in Washington. Este (Ah), Nick, Nick Reyes, Rosalia Gete.... What's her name? The guy that used to be the head of the Justice, in the Justice Department, the community thing... Dr. Gutiérrez:Pompa or Gil Chavez? Mr. CruzGil Pompa. I don't know about Gil Chavez because I don't know if he fits that category, but I..... [interruption in taping]. Dr. Gutiérrez:This is tape 2. We were talking about why you didn't go to Washington or seek other appointments. And, and you said there is a lot of people there dreaded going and you started mentioning some names as examples. Mr. CruzI, I think that, that going to Washington is.... To be effective, it's got to be almost a career or part of your, a major part of your career. And, and I've always had interests here that, that kept me here. Both my family and my business interests. And I think that it's important that we have people in Washington. I think that there ought to be more Hispanics in Washington from the southwest that would make that commitment to spend a, their career in Washington. But that they certainly should know that that's going to be a major part of their life. And that they do have to give up a lot of culture that doesn't exist up there. And if, if people make that decision, I think it's a good decision if that's what they want to do. Certainly we need them. We need that, that channel of communication coming back to the southwest. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, let me ask you a couple of direct questions. What is leadership? Mr. CruzLeadership is a.... It, it can be defined as, as something different in different fields. Leadership can be defined as something that you do as community activists, as a political activist, as a person who wants to break out of a mold and, and lead people to, to a, a, a better life as an objective by changing the rules, by changing the law, by changing the aspirations of people that are behind you. The facets of leadership are vast and people sometimes come equipped with the tools for leadership. And they can do many things on their own because they have the gift. And other people can be trained to be leaders if they are given the right skills to pursue the, the avenues of change. A lot of times the people understand that to be a leader that first you have to be a good follower. If you don't know how to follow you probably will never be a good leader because those are the proving grounds for leaders. Leadership is being the type of person that is not afraid to step out. You have to step out as a leader and, in any category. And I guess essentially when a person decides to lead, he has to understand that with that comes the liability of sticking your head a little further out than most people want to do or are willing to do. There are many people who aspire to be leaders and never get there simply because they don't want to make the commitment. The commitment of time. Your reputation. The commitment that it takes to pursue something consciously and, and.... The commitment of, of, of mostly time because it, it.... Once you make a commitment to go into something, it consumes you. It, it consumes. And if it don't you are not going to be successful unless you devote that time and effort. I mean, and you know, get up, get up earlier and go to sleep later. Abandon the, the commitment to, to a great extent, to the family responsibility, you know. The family suffers when you become a leader because it takes up, if you are a good leader, it takes up more time than you would want to give up as a good responsible family person. But it's necessary if you are going to accomplish those goals. So, all of those things, all those things in, in, in becoming a leader are, are things that one has to consciously understand because if he doesn't then he won't be as, as successful. Because if you think you are going to go out and lead and just do it on a part time basis, you are way off. It's not going to be that way. You got to give up your life almost, your style of life. And, and if you are willing to do it whether, whether.... If you do it consciously then, you know, you are making that commitment. But then, if you just, just, it kind of evolves that where you didn't plan to do it, but you are still willing to do it, com, commit to doing it and you pursue it without looking at how much money you are losing.... How much time you are losing. Where your life is at the time. I think that you, you find that in leaders, who are willing to sacrifice. Dr. Gutiérrez:Who is the most effective Mexican American leader today? Mr. CruzToday? I, I would say that we have a, a, many effective leaders today. More than we had in the past. Now, we don't have a national leader, people that everyone recognizes. We don't have a national leader who everybody is willing to follow. There are many names on all of these folks? Anglos are always asking, you know, where is your Martin Luther King, you know? Well, we have literally thousands of little Martin Luther Kings particularly in Texas and California and the Southwest. Geez, if you look at the public officials who are now elected in Texas, it's incredible. And all those folks are leaders. And all those folks are doing. But can we say we have one person who would fit the identifiable leader nationally? I think we've had some folks who are recognized nationally. But they have not, they have been more in the, in the role of, of, or administrative roles. People that you might recognize no matter who you appointed to that. If you appoint a person to the cabinet whether he is Hispanic, Chinese, or whatever, obviously he jumps out at you. But he doesn't jump out to the common folks, you know, to the common folks he would say.... To answer that Anglo question, where's your Martin Luther King or your, or your... What's that other minister? Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, there' s a Martian quote, "take me to your leader." Mr. Cruz Yeah. I, I would say that we have, I think we, we are way ahead of the Blacks in terms of our elected leaders. Certainly we need more leaders in the community. We don't have the number of leaders in the community that we need to back up a lot of these people. We are losing, we are losing, we are still losing way, way too many folks in our educational ladder. We can't afford that. I think that we need more folks committed to, to, to, to training people in the community. Dr. Gutiérrez:All right. Which is the most effective Mexican American organization today? Mr. CruzWell, the most effective Hispanic organization. We have very few to begin with in terms of national organizations. We have a hundred and sixty two Hispanic organizations in Austin, Texas. I, I can give you the mailing list. National organizations are limited. You've got the G. I. Forum which is on the.... It's never been an extremely numerous organization. And you've got LULAC which is, it's also.... Most of these national organizations sort of are on, either on a plateau somewhere or, or slowly sinking. And then you have IMAGE which is basically a northeastern controlled organization. And beyond that you have a lot of activity, again, at the local level, but national level, national organizations, very, very..... Dr. Gutiérrez:All right. Mr. CruzWhat we do have are beginning to, are going downhill right now. It's not just sitting on a plateau somewhere. Dr. Gutiérrez:Which is the most pressing issue facing Mexican Americans today? Mr. CruzI think the most pressing issue for Mexican Americans is the school dropout. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Black/Brown relations. What are the underpinnings of tension between Blacks and Browns? Mr. CruzWell, in, in the cities where there are a number of, of, of, when the numbers are consequential like Houston, Dallas, a little bit in San Antonio, Austin, I think they are different. In Houston you, you've had a developing divisiveness because the different ethnic groups have supported different local candidates. I don't know what the situation is in Dallas. It seems to be a little bit more volatile, volatile in, in Dallas, the division between Hispanic and the Black community. Dr. Gutiérrez:What do you think is at the bottom of that all? Mr. CruzWhat's at the bottom? Dr. Gutiérrez:You are correct in the description and in a sense, what I think. Mr. CruzYeah. I, I think that what's at the bottom of it is the fact that, that the overall community, the total community usually is only willing to give up so much of the pie. And then what, what, what part of that pie they are willing to give up, they leave it to us to fight over it. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Mr. CruzIn other words, if we are only going to give up so much.... But that's to all of you. And now ya'll work it out. And so, there has to be that, that challenge for each group to fight what, for what's left. And I wouldn't say it's planned, but, you know, whether, whether you get run over by, whether you get run over by a Mack truck by accident or by, by planned purpose it doesn't make any difference. You're still dead. So, that's what's happening to our communities. I think that when the overall community says no, you know, whatever ya'll are will, big enough and willing to, to share, I mean, not to share, but to, to gain, that's yours. It's, it's the old problem of people not wanting to give up power or wealth or, you know, that. They begrudging give it up. You almost have to take it away from them. And, if you don't take it away from them, then they are not going to give it to you. Dr. Gutiérrez:Within the group, what are the underpinnings of tension between Chicanos and recent Mexican immigrants, Chicanos and Mexicanos? Mr. CruzWell, I think that in Houston, for example, I think that when you have a strong economy it's less. When you have weak economy, it's, it's more divisive because again there's that struggle for the, for the, for the old American greenback. And so, if you have good economic times, then people resent other people coming in for their jobs or perceive them, you know, as coming in for their jobs when in many cases it's just perception. I mean, if a guy doesn't, can't find a job right away, he wants to blame somebody. So that, that is an easy target. But when the, when times are, are, are prosperous like now, I think you have less divisiveness. Dr. Gutiérrez:Within Chicanos and other Latino subgroups, Cubans, Central Americans, Puerto Ricans, what are the underpinnings of tension there? Mr. CruzWell, I think that's almost more regional. In, in terms of Cubans, well you know, probably, we are probably as welcome in, in Florida as Cubans are welcomed in Texas, you know. I think again it's, it's like, it's like they have their largest part of their family there and we have the largest part of our family over here. And we accept outsiders very reluctantly. Dr. Gutiérrez:OK. Did you tell us when you were born? Mr. CruzI was born on May the 20th, 1933. I am sixty five years old. Dr. Gutiérrez:Last question. What do you want to say? What did we not cover or, or touch on that you want to elaborate upon otherwise I'm, I'm over. I am done. Mr. CruzWell, simply like to say that I would like to see something happen in our community that is going to promote something that will motivate our folks whatever it is. I don't know what it is. As you probably know, I have a leadership training program at the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas. Dr. Gutiérrez:No, I didn't. Tell me about that. I take back that it's the last question. Go ahead and answer that fully. Mr. CruzWell, in 1988, this is called the Innovations 88 Leadership Program. In 1988, Tony Padilla and myself..... The later part of '88. Padilla is a labor union guy. He's the, now transferred to Washington. He is the director of, of, of legislation, legislative matters for the transportation communications union. But in 1988 we were meeting, and we were talking about the problem of the demographics of change in Texas. And we were reading and getting information that by 2010, 2020... that the Hispanic population would be the largest population in Texas. And with that we were saying, with that, after numerous meetings, we were saying, you know, with that responsibility comes the responsibility of governing even. And so, we said if they handed us the whole platter today, in 1988, we wouldn't be ready to take it. We wouldn't be ready to step in. Now, we need to train more leaders in the community. And we need to. So, we went to the University of Texas, to the dean of the LBJ School of Public Affairs and we told him what, what we wanted to do. And we said we want to bring this program into the University of Texas. And we want to set up a program. So we set up a, a, a program for leadership training of, of community leaders. And we were going to target mostly the Hispanic community because that's what we were. Where the problem was that we were trying to address. But we were not going to limit it only to Hispanics because that wouldn't be the right thing to do. And though ninety eight percent of the people that have gone through that program, which is about three hundred people, are Hispanics because that's who we target. But we, of course, allow anybody to... other people to apply. So, the University of Texas, the dean said, " Fine, we will, we will support you with a facility and we will issue the diploma for those people who graduate from your program." And they helped in some other ways. So, I took over the program and set up a curriculum of.... Basically we were trying to get people more information on public policy, give them some skills in the area of parliamentary procedure, more than just a motion and a second. Because what we were concerned about is people getting, our people getting intimidated by the system once they are in any organization, you know. Once you get beyond a motion and second, most of our folks are lost. Sometimes they get lost before that. So, we give them background, enough background information so that it is not intimidating. And any, in any system up to the level of the Texas legislature. And then we bring, expose them to Affirmative Action. And what we do is we bring in lecturers. We give them information on county government, city government, state government. And we bring in lecturers, people who are actually implementing the, that policy and creating that policy. And we, again, we have twelve sessions over a nine month period. And we give them exposure to law enforcement or the judiciary, mostly jurisdictional, we bring in district judges, supreme court justices. And, and that also helps also because some of these people that we bring in are high level people. People with extremely busy schedules. And they just, in many cases, do it as a favor to me to come in and lecture. And, but it's important for our people to understand these people are just people who put their pants on every day like we do, like anybody else. And that they are human beings. And no matter if they are justice, supreme court justice or a county judge, they get a one to one contact. And so they get more at ease with these leaders and, and people who implement public policies. And then we get into the area of education and we get into the area of the media. How you get elected to public office. We're going to bring in some spin doctors who talk about, you know, what they do in a political campaign. We bring in law enforcement so they will get more familiar with the different segments of our law enforcement, you know. The drug enforcement agency, the Austin police department, the FBI, the sheriff's office. We bring these people together where they are rubbing shoulders and we get rid of some of that fear. So, that's one of the other things that, that, this year we celebrated our tenth year in this program. Dr. Gutiérrez:How many people have you run through there? Mr. CruzLittle over three hundred. Dr. Gutiérrez:Wow. Mr. CruzYeah. Dr. Gutiérrez:And I suppose you depend on the private sector for funding? Mr. CruzWell, there, there is no funding in this program. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, you got to have some money for some of these lecturers and maybe some.... Mr. CruzNo. Dr. Gutiérrez:....coffee or doughnuts for the participants? If they are there twelve times in nine months.... Mr. CruzWe have, we have a very nominal fee. We charge these people. You are probably going to think this is, this is what we run the program on. We have a, a, we don't tell these people that because we don't want to discourage them, you know. But we, essentially we run that program on my free time and, and my computers. And, and we charge them. This last year we charged.... I think the most we've ever charged them is fifty eight dollars for their application fee, and that's it. With that we buy them the notebooks and the information. I put it all out, you know. And this year we had our graduation. We had.... Ted Kennedy was going to come down to be our graduation speaker and, and he couldn't come at the last minute. So he sent Charlie Gonzalez [current U.S. Representative] from San Antonio. And he sent a video, a ten minute video saying, you know, good things. Had a great program. Dr. Gutiérrez:During this time, do they allow you.... The legislature for an added line item to the LBJ School of Public Affairs [budget]? Mr. CruzWe may get to that point and, and, and I may do that at some point. I, I, I kind of want to sort of ease back a little bit and kind of bring in someone else to be the director of the program because it, it's really eating, it eats up all my time. And let me tell you something else that's very difficult. This is where we have to teach our people, you know, so much. I'm, I'm raising the price of the application fee to a hundred dollars because we, we, generally speaking, we, we recruit about forty people and ten of them drop out. If I recruited ten, ten would drop out. If I recruited thirty five, ten drop out. I don't know why. And, and, and it's mostly our people. Now, whether that's because they don't know, they don't want to make the commitment of time, these are three hour sessions. But they don't want to make the commitment of time or they don't see the value or they are, they don't anticipate their schedules in time. And so, the other thing that I thought well maybe it's because we are so, it's so, the price is so low to get in, they say well, you know, I don't care about sixty bucks, so I'll just, you know, I don't care. So, I said well, I am going to raise the price. Maybe they will feel it. Maybe two or three more will say I don't want to throw away a hundred dollars, you know. But, but we run a..... Even the folks at the university are amazed that we run this program. And it, it's going to, it's going to evolve. I want to, I want to hire a, a director to run this program and raise the money to pay him a decent salary. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, I am sure you will get there know, knowing Lauro Cruz. Is there anything else you want to say? Mr. CruzNo, I think, I think we've probably covered the ball park pretty well. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, I want to thank you very much for your time. I am glad that we were able to schedule this and I look forward to you coming up for the presentation when we get this done. Mr. CruzYeah. Well, let me say this, Jose. You know, I, I, I, I've been looking forward to, to seeing you. We've been trying to get together for a couple of weeks now and, and I'm glad to see you are alive and well and kicking, still laughing. And a great, great number of people here in this state think an awful lot of you and what you've done. You know, your, your activity has obviously not gone unnoticed. It has received credit, maybe not full credit for the things that you've accomplished, but our folks owe you a great deal. Dr. Gutiérrez:Well, thank you very much. Unsolicited plug. Thank you.