Oral History Interview with Amancio Chapa, 1998 Chapa, Amancio Interview conducted by Jos Angel Gutirrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee Jos Angel Gutirrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Julie Williams Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 61 pages Published online as part of the Tejano Voices Project. University of Texas at Arlington Libraries
P.O. Box 19497, Arlington, Texas, 76019-0497

Literary rights and title are owned by the University of Texas at Arlington Libraries.

 2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. 70.

Oral history interviews published online as the Tejano Voices Project, partially funded by a grant received in 2001 from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission's TexTreasures program.

 Library of Congress Subject Headings Library of Congress Name Authority File Jose Angel Gutirrez Amancio Chapa none English Spanish Chapa, Amancio Gutirrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews XXX oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos INSERT KEYWORD HERE

The University of Texas at Arlington

Oral History Interview with Amancio Chaoa, 1998 Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 70 Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Location of Interview: XXX Number of Transcript Pages: 61 Cite as: Oral History Interview with Amancio Chapa, CMAS 70, Special Collections, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries. Interviewee: Amancio Chapa Interviewer: Jos Angel Gutirrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers: XXX and Jos Angel Gutirrez Date of Interview: June 5, 1998 Location of Interview: XXX Amancio Chapa Dr. Gutirrez: We are recording now. You are agreeing to do this interview, no? Amancio Chapa, on June the 5th, 1998? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: And you are willing to donate this archive to the University of Texas at Arlington? Mr. Chapa: Yes, I am. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. We talked about the purpose of the archive and the interview, so we want to cover several areas. Do you want to talk about your childhood or do you want to talk backwards of what you are doing now and work back to the childhood and your parents? Take it away. Mr. Chapa: Well, I, basically, was born in La Joya, Texas. I think, I consider some of my formative years when I was young, I guess, from about five to fourteen I grew up in the housing projects in Corpus Christi, Texas and I guess. . . Dr. Gutirrez: What was the name of it? Mr. Chapa: La Armada. And, they are still there este y (ah, and), and I think much to my dad's credit, to a certain extent, even though he didn't have the money, but somehow he managed to get us into a Catholic school. And, that's kind of where I faced, I think, as a very young person, I, I remember about nine, ten years old, my first encounter with racism on the street. I think, when some of the students at the Catholic school found out where I lived. I think that's the first time I found out we were poor, economically. Although I think in, in those days, a lot of, you know, we didn't consider ourselves poor pero (but) ay tambien (there also) that's where we started working in las pizcas (cotton picking) believe it or not, on Chapman Ranch. Venian las trocas alli por el (The trucks would come by there at the) housing project to pick up the kids. And, and also I, you know, I became aware of, of this real class and racial distinction between Mexicanos and Anglo-Americans; alli en la escuela. (there at the school.) Not so much from las monjitas (the nuns) or the priests, but among the parents of the Anglo students and I think that, that did a lot to, to make me conscious of that. The more we, you know, of, of that, of class distinction and what racism was. Dr. Gutirrez: Did you ever do anything about it? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Este (Ah) I remember we got a group of Chicanos together at the school to, to discuss it and, and you know what? We had a funny incident even before that. This happened when I was about in the sixth or seventh grade, but before that when the Walt Disney Davy Crockett movie came out, on the playground the very next day, because I think that usually aired on a Sunday. Dr. Gutirrez: From the Alamo? Mr. Chapa: No. Yeah. Davy Crockett at the Alamo. That's when the division came. Before we all played together y todo (and everything) and even though it wasn't done maliciously, but we divided ourselves up between the Mexicans and the Texans. And, and, and in those days, I mean, it was like doing like horseback or piggyback-riding fights. The. . . But, but the teams then started separating out along Mexicanos and Anglos. That, I remember that very vividly. Este (Ah,) and so, we started talking about it, pos (like) as chamacos (kids), you know, after school. And we'd get together to listen to some of the Fifties music and all that,and we started talking about these things. About how things had changed, relations had changed, and, and, and how, for example, this one gabachitas's (white girl's) parents reacted toward me when they found out that she took an interest in me. And I think I was eleven years old or something like that. And, and, and it all had to do with, with, it had to do with a, a school dance and, and her parents not letting her go because they found out that she was going to go with a Mexican. Y, (And), And, and so, we, you know, we talked about that and we brought it back, tried to bring it to, to the principal's attention, you know, that this, this, even though it was a personal thing, this was happening. And so, we started uniting mas en grupos de Mexicanos ( more in groups of Mexicans). And, and, and we kind of took over the student leadership alli en la escuela, (there at the school), the Catholic school. And, and we were in control of most of the, the organizations, the class presidencies, and all that even though we were the minority. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, when were you born? Mr. Chapa: In 1946. August 3rd, 1946. Dr. Gutirrez: And the name of your parents, both sides and where did they come from? Mr. Chapa: OK. My father is Amancio Jose Chapa, Sr., era de un rancho que sellama Tierra Blanca. (he was from a ranch called Tierra Blanca) which is near La Joya, Texas and my mother is Carmela Gonzalez from Mission, Texas. Dr. Gutirrez: And the grandparents? Mr. Chapa: My grandparents were David Chapa and Petra de la Garza. Dr. Gutirrez: On your dad's side? Mr. Chapa: On my dad's side. Dr. Gutirrez: Where are they from? Mr. Chapa: They were from pos alli del rancho (well, there from the ranch) I think. Los Chapas had been in Texas since about the late 1800s. My branch originally came from Agua Leguas, Nuevo Leon de este lado del rio (Aguas Leguas this side of the river) [United States side] since about, I'd say about 1868, 1870. and my, my mother's parents were Virginia Reccio y (and) Froylan Gonzalez. Dr. Gutirrez: Where were they from? Mr. Chapa: They were from tambien (also) you know, my, my grandfather, de un ranchito que se llamaba Santa Rosita o la hacienda del Encadenado en el estado de Nuevo Leon, (from a little ranch named Santa Rosita or the hacienda of the Encadenado in the state of Nuevo Leon) [Mexico] which is somewhere. . . I think. . . .And my grandmother was born in La Havana, Texas. Dr. Gutirrez: Why don't we stop this for a minute? Recording. You were finishing or, or ending telling me about. . . Mr. Chapa: About my grandparents. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . .your parents and your grandparents. So, unless you want to add about, to finish the family, if you want to add your brothers and sisters and then your wife and children, so we can finish that biographical part. Mr. Chapa: Oh, OK. Well, the, I, I come from a family of four brothers, one sister. My brothers are Jaime, Carlos, Antonio, and my sister, Yolanda, and then I had five kids tambien (also), four boys and one girl. Dr. Gutirrez: Where are you in the hierarchy of the other brothers and sisters? Mr. Chapa: I am the oldest. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Mr. Chapa: I am the oldest. Dr. Gutirrez: And who are your kids and who are you married to? Mr. Chapa: OK. My kids, my oldest son is Amancio the III. And then I have Amancio Jose, Armando Javier, Angel Joaquin, and Aris de Jesus and Elena Carmela. And I married Maria Cecilia Guerra from Alice, Texas. Dr. Gutirrez: A little bit about her family. Mr. Chapa: OK. Pos la familia de ella (Well her family) is an old family from the San Diego, Alice area. Eran rancheros de las familias viejas. (They were ranchers from the old families.) I think that have been there tambien (also), I think since the mid 1800s. Familias rancheras. (Ranching families.) Los papas de ella tenia (Her parents had a) meat market. I think one of her brothers, yeah, not I think, I know. One of her, one of her brothers, Robert Guerra, her brother was county judge of Jim Wells County. He's now an attorney aqui en San Anto. (here in San Antonio.) I think when he was in, in, he was in, I think active in La Raza Unida. And, and. . . En esos tiempos. (In those times.) And so, that's it. Dr. Gutirrez: Let me ask you for a personal favor. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: But, of course, this is the personal favor. Mr. Chapa: Si (Yes.) Dr. Gutirrez: It's easier for me to transcribe it if you stick to English, but if there is something you got to say in Spanish. . . Mr. Chapa: Oh, oh, OK. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . well say it in Spanish. Mr. Chapa: OK. I'll do that. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Well, I guess that finishes the biography. Do you want to pick up on your early childhood and talk about any other significant things or disappointments in your childhood and then get into your youthful activism and how that happened and why? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think basically what, from, from Corpus Christi we moved back to the Valley, back to La Joya where my dad's family was from. Dr. Gutirrez: Around when? Mr. Chapa: That was about 1959, 1960. And it was a very rural school district at the time and, and I had a little bit of a difficulty integrating at first. Coming from the city toa, back to a farming, ranching community, again where the primary language was Spanish and but the right, right off the bat, I, I came sort of under the political mentorship of a, of one of the local town politicos, patron (boss) Leo J. Leo. Actually, my family, the Chapas, were against his political party, but we, we talked a lot. He was very pro, la gente pobre, (the poor people,) the farm workers. And, and, and I got involved in our student government right off the bat. Now, La Joya was all. . . . I mean, I think back in those days the pop. . . , the student population was like ninety nine point nine percent Raza in La Joya, and it still is today. But we had a significant portion of the school board that had some local Anglo farmers on the school board. I, basically our principals, some of the leadership positions and the district superintendent were Anglo. And I think, I, I got involved with the student government in high school and got, mostly to a leadership position by just by being president of my class from, I guess, from my freshman year to my senior year. And that led me to, to get involved in a couple of incidents there where we, we, we took on the defense. . . the students. . . of a teacher that had been fired by the school board on the recommendation of the Anglo high school principal. And we had, we had a, a, a, a student walkout over that. In where we went before the school board to argue the case of a teacher and the fact that, that this was a teacher that had done a lot for the Mexicano students. And, and, and, and was one of the most popular teachers in the high school. And, and, and that led, you know, to, I think, my first involvement with a political body. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, how were you involved in this group and who is we? Mr. Chapa: OK. We were just a group of students that, actually and at that, that time I was a sophomore, but a group of seniors and juniors came to me, I don't know why. I guess maybe because I, I kind of had a reputation of being outspoken on different things and so they asked me to put together a petition and, and to get it circulating at the high school. Dr. Gutirrez: What year is this? Mr. Chapa: This was 1963. And, and so we did that. I wrote the petition and then we circulated it and, and then we had a, we had a walkout. We shut the school down for a day and, and then we, I was contacted among with some of the, I guess, the senior class president, the junior president, their officers and all of that, to go before the school boardand explain what we were doing. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, the school board was all Mexicano at that time? Mr. Chapa: It was like half and half. There were, there were about, I think, two or three Anglos and about four Mexicanos on the board at that time. The chairman of the school board at that time was a man by the name of Bet. . . D. B. Reyna, Beto Reyna who was the, the opposing political force to the Leo J. Leo faction in that school district. We weren't able to salvage the teacher. She got, she got fired, but over the summer the high school principal also got fired. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you still have names of the teacher and the principal? Mr. Chapa: Yes. The, the teacher's name was Olivia Hinjosa. She was from Rio Grande City. And the principal, his name was, I think it was Stevens. And I remember, I, I had no idea what the school board had done. Because this came towards the end of the school year and when this happened and the school board was giving out contracts, renewing contracts, and that's when we found out that Miss Hinojosa's contract was not renewed. But what happened was that then summer came along and, of course, you know, the students, we sort of unos se fuero para (some of them went to) to the, you know, working up more picking crops. And then some of us stayed working on the farms there. And so, we didn't, we didn't. . . All we knew is that she didn't, she wasn't coming back. She didn't get her contract, and so, we thought we had lost it. And then, and then I was in a, in a grocery, a, a drug store in Mission, Texas when I, I came, Mr. Stevens came up to me and he just looked at me and said, "Why did you do this to me?" And I said, and I said, "Well, what are you talking about Mr. Stevens?" He says, "I. . . The school board fired me." And he said, "It's because of that, that thing that you started with your petition." And so, that came as a surprise to me. And so, that and, and then about the, I guess, as I was moving toward being a senior, things were starting to happen politically in La Joya. Through Leo J. Leo I learned a lot about PASO, about what had happened in Crystal City when the, I think PASO took over the city. Was it Juan Cornejo? And so, again, as a high school student I was getting this by hanging out at the Leo grocery store and seeing Mr. Leo's involvement with PASO and being very pro Mexicano and, and that interested me. That just, that caught my attention. Dr. Gutirrez: Did this cause any problems between you and your dad or your mombecause they were on the other side? Mr. Chapa: Well, it caused more of a problem with my uncles. My father, since we had again, he was the youngest in his family, his older brothers were more established in the, in, in the district. They were local farmers and, and they had, I guess they felt some, not, not family ties, but compadrismo (godparent related) ties to the Reyna faction. And my father was sort of neutral at first even though he attended some of the Reyna rallies during political times. And I was very aware that the Chapas were members of the Reyna faction and my father encouraged me to, to keep getting involved. He never tried to stop me. Of course, one of Leo J. Leo's sons, Billy Leo, who got involved locally in La Joya politics, was my school mate. And, and, and so, he was one of my best friends. And so, that, that kind of helped move me to that, to that political faction locally. Plus the fact that I admired what Mr. Leo was doing. And then Mr. Leo and Dr. Ramiro Casso sent me to a two week institute when I graduated from high school that was held at UT, that was sponsored by PASO, NAACP, the Texas AFL-CIO, and I, I don't know if there was some. . . and the Texas Democratic party. It was at St. Edward's University. And, and they took juniors and seniors from different high schools around the state of Texas. And, and you had to be recommended either by a PASO member, NAACP, again, labor, or, or the Democratic party. So they sent me to this deal. And that's where I got exposed to the Reverend James Bevel from, from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. At that time they brought in Henry B. Gonzalez to address the, the Chicanos in the group. Well, everybody, not just the Chicanos, but that, that was one of the Mexicanos. That's where I met, I think, Henry Munoz who was a labor leader. I met several of the Mexicano labor leaders, the, the big unions. I don't think UFW [United Farm Workers] was in Texas yet, but it was, it was to focus on impacting Democratic party politics. You know, how conventions were run, how the precincts deals ran. And I was, I was already had been accepted to the University of Texas. And so, I was, I was going to go from there to freshman orientation. But this was like two solid weeks with, with Afro-Americans, with Anglos, and, and Mexicanos that it was just, you know, politics. And, and I think that had a lot to do tambien (also) with opening up my eyes. And so, by the time I hit the University of Texas, you know, I was already on the lookout for wanting to do something politically or something involving los Mexicanos there on campus. Dr. Gutirrez: So, what did you do with that information? Mr. Chapa: Well, of course, shortly after that, because it was summer, about a month later I was up attending student orientation at the University of Texas. And, and I would say within. . . . I probably. . . . The end of the, the first semester when, when we were registering for, for, well, for the new semester. We were given these cards as we were exiting the, the Gregory Gymnasium where, where registration took place, that asked us to identify ourselves ethnically. And there was no category for Mexican American, Chicano, anything like that. And there was this other category. And it had things like, I don't know, Argentina, stuff like that, but there was nothing for, for Mexicanos. I don't even think there was Latino or anything like that, but there was Black-American or Negro-American. I, I don't know what the term was, but there was nothing for us. So, so I wrote a letter to the Daily Texan that got published in the Sunday paper. And, and a couple of my buddies from Laredo that I hung out with, we, we, we signed our names to the letter, sent it in, and got, got in the paper. And then, and then, we got a call from, from two guys, Alex Moreno and David Montejano, and so, from there we started MASO, Mexican American Student Organization. And, and Dr. Americo Paredes got interested in the group and he was our first sponsor. Dr. Gutirrez: Would this be '64 by now or '63 still? Mr. Chapa: This would be '65. Dr. Gutirrez: '65? So you graduated from high school in '64? Mr. Chapa: No. In '65. And so, this was, now I think we are talking '66 now because I, I, I started, I guess, September of '65 at, at the University of Texas. And then, and then, this came like after like the first semester when we were registering for the second semester that, that, that the incident with the cards happened. And so, we just posted signs on the trees and see how many. . . . We wanted to know how many Mexicanos were, were at UT and how many of them might be interested. And, and we were going to. . . Surprisingly enough, we got a, a little group together and. . . Dr. Gutirrez: How many? Mr. Chapa: I think there must have been about twenty or thirty in the beginning and, and then it, it kind of grew. Dr. Gutirrez: Any women? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: Who were some of those? Mr. Chapa: Let me see. Rosa Gonzales, este (ah) Amalia. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Rodriguez Mendoza? Mr. Chapa: Rodriguez Mendoza, este... Well, there were, there were several that came. And, as a matter of fact, they were among some of the more active as we went on because the Economy Furniture Strike was going on in Austin. And, and that involved a lot of Raza in the leadership of that, that they were trying to unionize the, the, the factory, the furniture factory in Austin. And, and so, we took kind of a supportive role in, in, in helping with the picket lines. And then we got involved in some of the local campaigns in Austin, Texas where the first Mexicanos were starting to run for city council and school board. And, of course, we came from all over Texas and, and. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Do you remember who some of those candidates were? Mr. Chapa: Uh yeah. It was Buddy Ruiz, I think ran for city commissioner. Shortly after that Richard Moya ran for, for county commissioner and then, and then there were some others that ran and, and we got involved with, with their campaigns. And then, you know, we were very much involved with stuff that was going on on campus. You know we were concerned about the recruitment of Chicanos students to UT, professors, scholarships, este. . . . We had a, I think. . . . One of the biggest incidents that we had was we protested Texas Independence Day. And, and we had a big protest in Uvalde. . . . Against it's return. We would dress up as Mexicanos and come on campus and shoot canons and they were, they were like a tradition. And that got the, even the Mexican consulate from San Antonio involved because they heard about what had happened. But we were, we, we, you know, we met with the, with the president of the university. At that time, Dr. Norman Ackerman, who basically told us that he didn't feel that UT needed to do anything for minorities because they were the state institution and they treated all students equally. And, and we had a very heated session with him about that that's just not how we saw it. Now, unfortunately at the time, there was, there was this guy, Lupe Zamarripa who got control of MASO, so he became elected. That was a year when, when the original leadership, some of us went on scholastic probation, so we were out for a semester. And when we came back, Lupe had been elected chairman of, of MASO.And, and I think prior to that I, I do remember a meeting. . . . I don't know if it was with you, Mario Compean, and , at UT about changing the name of MASO to MAYO and joining forces. I know we met in Austin. And, I think at that time we, some of us felt that well you know, it, it was kind of a sentimental thing with us, but you know, we were in agreement and everything that MAYO was doing, but we wanted to hold onto the name. About that time there was also a group of students that came in from Uvalde, [Rogelio] Munoz and Joaquin Rodriguez and these guys and, and they joined MASO. And then we had a meeting and then we started talking about we ought to take back control of the organization. And, and, and MASO had be, then become kind of a, a, like a party deal. Social. And planning parties after the Friday night football games. So we were, we were really upset about that. And, and there was no advocacy going on, and so, we took it over. I think at that time, I don't know if it was either Jose Limon and myself about that time that got, then got elected and the first thing we did then is we changed to MAYO. Dr. Gutirrez: Was Ernie Cortes involved with you all at that time? Mr. Chapa: Ernie, no, Ernie, as a matter of fact, when I, when I came in as a freshman to UT, I think Ernie was on his way out of UT because I, I remember seeing him walking around campus. And he may have shown up at one or two of our meetings. And then, I think the next thing I knew, I think Ernie was in the Valley with forming Colonias del Valle [an organization in the Rio Grande Valley of unicorporated areas ] with the farm workers or something like that. Pero (But) Ernie basically exited. And so, we, it was basically, I think, people like Jose Limon, myself, Rogelio Munoz, and, and then through tambien (also) with a lot of encouragement from Americo Paredes, you know, to keep the organization going and to keep it more active este. And then tambien (also) teaming up when, when we got one of the first Mexicanos elected to student government. That's when we teamed up with the Hippies and the Blacks on campus in something called the, the Ying Yang Coalition. And when this, this sort of radical, Anglo guy, Jeff Jones, got elected student body president, it really upset the fraternities. But we got a couple of Mexicanos on, on the student government. And, and then we started pushing for, I think UT at that time had a Latin-American Studies Center, but we wanted a Mexican-American or Chicano Studies. And, and, and I think I was around that time, I wasmarried and getting ready to leave UT. I know you came on at, at the University of Texas as, I think as a professor or, or, or you were starting or something. Este and, and so one of our deals that we used to talk about there within our MAYO chapter, because we were on a college campus, was going back home and getting involved in the, in the political process, running for office. And so, unos (some), some of them stayed in Austin. I, I think the majority of, of the people in, in, in our MAYO chapter did go back to their hometowns and one way or another got involved politically. And, and I remember I was called back after, after I left UT; I was asked by Amalia and some other people to come back and talk to the MAYO chapter at UT because the Socialist party was putting a lot of pressure; the women's movement was picking up; and, there was starting to be some friction among the MAYO members about whether we still needed to focus on the general Chicano causa (cause) versus the Women's Movement; and, and, and, and a more Socialist agenda, you know, that was being. . . .. The Socialist Worker Alliance was always trying to infiltrate MAYO and other groups, you know, to get us to, to support their rallies and organize our rallies. And, so we were. . . And, then we were very much involved in the anti-war movement here, here, bueno (well), in Austin at the time. And, and also, like I said, with the politics of East Austin, but always in a, always in a supporting role, recognizing that we were not from Austin. And, so we. . . Our, our MAYO chapter just was, you know, to support the, the union effort and, and, and then the political campaigns, but basically doing door to door, organizing. I think that we were approached to help organize some, a little movement that was starting in Lockhart, Texas. I remember being invited to different meetings in the community of East Austin or towns like Lockhart to, to help, you know, La Raza, who were really a minority there. You know, like how could they get organized; how could they stand up to, to, to the gringo power establishment in, in their community? And even, I think, at Lockhart, they only wanted us to come in after the sun went down. You know, they were that concerned about how they would be perceived. And, and so, you know, we had some meetings there. And, then, of course, you know, going to the different Chicano conferences that, that were being held at that time. I remember one of the, one of the, when I was still at UT, running into a guy that had been my basketball coach in seventh grade in Corpus Christi, Texas. This guy was Ramsey Muniz. And, when I first saw him, he was still at,at Baylor. And he bought a group of Chicanitos up, I guess, from, from Waco, to a conference that was being held that, for La Raza. And I just went up to him and I said, "Coach, do you remember me?" I called him, "Coach." And because he was still very clean cut, you know, suit, he had his glasses on. And I hadn't seen him, I, I hadn't seen him since I was in the seventh grade and he was, at that time he was a high school student at Miller High School. And, este (ah), and, then we renewed our friendship and, and, and then I went back to the Valley. Dr. Gutirrez: When you graduated? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. When I graduated I went back to La Joya. Dr. Gutirrez: Before you go on with that, let me ask you a couple of quick questions. Why did you go to college? Was that ever an option? How did you pay for this and why in the world would you get married in your junior year? Mr. Chapa: OK. Well, I, I thought college was an option. One is, is I was valedictorian of my class. So the, but my idea was Pan American. I mean, that, that, those were my aspirations. And, and there were some of my high school teachers said, "No, you gotta," you know, "you got to do something with this education, I mean, the fact that you are going to be the valedictorian." And, so I said, "All right. I'll go to A & I. . . " And, and, "No, no, you got to work on something else," you know. And so. . . Dr. Gutirrez: These are counselors or parents or advisors? Mr. Chapa: Teachers. Basically, teachers. My government teacher and my biology teacher and, and a couple of others that talked to my mom and dad. But one way or another my, my mom and dad didn't have the financial resources to send me to, to an out of Valley college or university. And, anyway. . . And, then I got a small. . . , I think back in those days, if you were valedictorian, you got like a two hundred dollar grant from the state or something. But they, they got me the, the applications to apply for, I guess, National Defense Student Loan. And, and they said, "No, you're, you're going to the University of Texas." And, so that's what I did. Dr. Gutirrez: What were you studying? What was your major? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I started out in pre-med, but then learned very quickly that my interest didn't lie there mostly because my knowledge of, of organic chemistry ran out. And, and then other things were side tracking me. I, I got very side tracked by what wasgoing on on campus, not in the classroom, but the, the whole anti-war movement. The things that were going on; the, the debates that were going on on the mall; and the, the rallies that were being held; and, I found myself gravitating toward that. And, and so, then I started shifting my major. Actually, at the time I was very, you know, I got. . . Because I had taken a, a couple of psychology courses and did pretty good, and then I. . . And, then I said, "Well, you know, I wanted to be a psychologist." And, so I started following that. And, then all of a sudden, they started this Mexican American Studies Department where, where I got to. . . . Then start taking some first classes of. . . dealing with Mexican and American literature and politics. And, people like Raymond Paredes and, and Dr. Paredes, and some other people, I took some courses with them that, that, that, you know, my, my interest started shifting again to a more social type agenda. I, I eventually just ended up getting a degree in psychology and, and was, was just about to get a minor tambien (also) in this Mexican-American Studies and I. . . And I wish I would stuck with it, but I, I guess about the time I was a junior, I got married. And very, very plainly put it is, because my girlfriend at the time got pregnant. And, and so, we got married that summer. And it. . . I, I always tell my friends this story that Christmas of 1969, we had no children at all. My son, our first child was born on New Year's Eve, December 31st, 1969. And, then the next November, the following November, we had our second son, Armando. And, so, they are like ten and a half months apart. So, by that time, with two, with two kids, I had, and I had submitted a. . . By that time my interest was running. . . I, I was, I was entertaining thoughts of going of going to law school. So, I took the LSAT. And then I, I had an application. Well, I had an application then to take the LSAT. I didn't. I hadn't applied for law school, but I feel right after that I would do that. About that time. . . My, my wife had finished a semester before I did and she was a, a pharmacist. And she was just doing part-time work in the Austin area. And, and I got a call from Juan Gutierrez who worked for an organization called IRA [Interstate Research Associates], which Raul Yzaguirre and him, and a guy by the name of Rick Bela had started. And, and, I don't know, they offered me some, something about either twelve thousand. I don't know what it was. Nine thousand. Back then, this was like 1970. . . . I finally finished up my degree in, in '70, December of, of, of '70. And, and this guy said he had heard of me through some other people about being active in Chicanos affairs atUT and the guys says, "Man, I got a job for you. We got this. . . We got this federal grant. We are going to do training of boards of directors of farm worker organizations, newly merging farm, farm worker organizations that was funded by OEO." And, so I went to work for them. And, of course, told my wife, "We will go back to the Valley. We will save some money and come back," you know, "to law school." And, and, but then. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Never did? Mr. Chapa: . . . never did. And. . . Dr. Gutirrez: One other interruption. In '65, '66, and '67, the Valley, right next to La Joya, there in Rio Grande City. And, La Casita Farms was a big strike. Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: Did you ever get involved with any of that or what role did you play because I know that Billy Leo was very involved with that? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: And then la marcha (the march) [Valley Farm workers from Starr County, Texas] that came all the way up to Austin. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Were you involved in any of that? Mr. Chapa: I was involved in the march to Austin, but only as a participant. I was still up in Austin when that happened and Billy Leo and his dad, Mr. Leo, I think, greeted the farm workers and had to give them like a rest stop. And he was, he organized a little rally there at his store. I, I was not involved in that because I was still up here in, in Austin. But, then when the march started, I, I participated in, in, in, in the march, basically I think outside of San Antonio to Austin, and then when they got to Austin, you know, well, you know, the, the, the local MAYO chapter, you know, we got involved with that. Dr. Gutirrez: Were you present with the confrontation with [Gov. John] Connally and [Ben] Barnes and Crawford [Martin]? Mr. Chapa: No. No. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. So, what happened when the farm workers got here? What, what did you all do? Mr. Chapa: Well again, you know, it was more just of a supportive role, just helping them plan and organize some, putting some of them up este (ah), you know. We just wentout and volunteered, you know, to do what, you know, whatever we could do to, to help them when they were coming up. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, they planned it wrong, no? I mean the legislature wasn't in session. Mr. Chapa: Yeah, that's right. Dr. Gutirrez: So, so what did they do? The vigil or do you remember what you all did? Mr. Chapa: No. No. Dr. Gutirrez: You don't remember? Mr. Chapa: No. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. So, you moved back to the Valley in '70, '71? Mr. Chapa: Sure. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. By that time you have lots of school walkouts in the Valley. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Are you involved with any of those, Edcouch-Elsa. . . ? Mr. Chapa: No. No. No, the, as a matter of fact, I wasn't directly involved, but the La Joya School District was. And, and they were one of the districts that took in the Edcouch-Elsa students to La Joya. And, La Joya even had an involvement back, I think, in the 1930s with a walkout that happened in Mission, Texas. Where, where the Anglo school board was going to build a brand new high school on the Mexican side of town; and, then the Mexicanos there realized that this was a movida (trick) to pull the Mexicans out of the one existing high school in Mission. Get them back across the tracks. And, so there was a walkout there, mostly from, from Mexicano businessmen that, that pulled their kids out of the Mission school, and then La Joya agreed to accept them. And so, but in that, that was, I think, back in the Thirties. . . And, and, and then aside from that, that, that small walkout that we had back when. I was a, a sophomore. . . The. . . La Joya was, I think, one of two districts, I don't know which the other district was, but I know that, that a lot of the students from Edcouch-Elsa came. And La Joya sent it's buses to Edcouch to pick up the kids. And, and, and that was done through Leo J. Leo, the guy that was the motivating factor behind that. Dr. Gutirrez: So, can I assume that Leo J. Leo was able to beat Beto Martinez? Mr. Chapa: Beto Reyna. Dr. Gutirrez: Beto Reyna. And he took control? Mr. Chapa: Eventually. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: And I, can I assume that the Anglos were no longer on the school board? Mr. Chapa: That's right. That's right. That was about the last time an Anglo served on the school board after the Leo faction won in La Joya. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. But what did you do when, when you got back in, in '70 with IRA or, or did you start your own Colonia. . . Amigos del Valle, (Colony. . . Friends of the Valley) or what? Mr. Chapa: Well, what happened was, when I got back. . . Politically, what happened was, as soon as I got back to La Joya, Leo J. Leo sent for me. And, he said, "They had a slot open for school board position." And, and he wanted me to run for the school board. And, ironically I was running against an, another guy that was a very good friend of mine who is currently the superintendent of La Joya, Dr. Roberto Zamora. And, and, and so Mr. Leo said, "We need a college graduate to, to run against Roberto Zamora because he is leaning mas (more), you know, toward the Reyna faction." They, they still had sort of a split board. And, so I saw that as my chance to get in there because I was coming straight out of UT, still involved with MAYO, and I was looking for something, you know, to, to be able to channel that. And I, and I told Mr. Leo, I said, "Mr. Leo, you realize that I am Raza Unida and I am a member of MAYO. I still consider myself, but even though we don't have a MAYO chapter in La Joya, but. . . ." And, he says, "I know that,mi'jo (my son) and you will get my support. I won't mess with you. I believe in the same things, except I believe in doing it through the Democratic Party," you know. And so, he, not only he, but, but the board gave me a lot of leeway. And, so when I, I ran for school board, I won, and then for the next five years I was, I was elected president of the board by these older men that, that sat on the board, all Mexicanos. Dr. Gutirrez: So you got elected in '71, 2. . . ? Mr. Chapa: In '70, '71. Dr. Gutirrez: '71. Mr. Chapa: '71. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, did you ever go to the national MAYO meeting at La Lomita. . . Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . in '69? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: Can you tell me a little bit about what you recollect went on there and what you did there? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I didn't play a very significant role in it. Este (Ah,) I went up there when, when a lot of the guys. . . . What it, what it helped me do was meet a lot of the guys from the Valley that are still friends of mine, that were involved in one way or another. I don't now if, if at that time they were MAYO's or not. I think a lot of them considered themselves that or I know that they considered themselves Raza Unida and from different towns, Weslaco, este (ah). . . . Of course, I already knew [Alberto] Luera and Nacho Perez [MAYO organizers] and some of those people and, and well, I knew you back then through, through the meetings that we had had at UT and of course through your involvement with, with MAYO and, and Raza Unida. But in terms of, I was just getting myself back, back incorporated into the Valley, not so much to La Joya because that was my home area, pero (but), you know, I needed to. . . .. Met with, with some young people that, that, that saw things my way. And it wasn't really until, until I was approached by a group from, from. . . That, that had set up Jacinto Trevino [alternative college]. And so, so I went up, I went up to La Lomita a couple of times. But I wasn't in any kind of leadership capacity and then most of what I became involved with in the Valley had to do with the Raza Unida party. By the time I got there, ya'll, there were really no active MAYO chapters in, in the Valley around that time, and so, I got real involved. I was on the board of directors of Jacinto Trevino at the, at the same time that, that I was sitting on the school board in La Joya. And, and then I guess, the only thing that I, that. . . Well, one of the things that I, I got real active in was Ramsey Muniz' campaign. Mike Lopez and myself were like the local Valley coordinators for his campaign. Dr. Gutirrez: Until we get to that, why did Jacinto Trevino fail? How did you get along with Narcisco Aleman? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I got a, I got along real good with Narcisco. At first, you know, Narcisco was, was a character and, and very, very strongly opinionated. And, as a matter of fact. . . . But I think that he saw me as being the president of a Valley school board, even though, at that time La Joya again, was a very small community. But I think, it had areputation of sort of being progressive. And the fact that, that somebody that had come, I guess, through MAYO, Raza Unida, was a chairman of the board, they, you know, they, they wanted those kind of people on their board. And so, Narcisco always looked you over. And, and I remember we had a, at one time, he, he pulled me aside because I, I, I just, well I still do, I wear, I was wearing a pair of cowboy boots and, and he wanted to know. . . He said, "That's the one thing I don't like about you, Amancio, that you are always wearing botas vaqueras (cowboy boots). And, don't you know what that represents? Los Rinches, los gringos! (The Texas Rangers, the whites!) Anglo. Look at what they have done to La Raza." And I said, "Well Narcisco, but you don't realize that the boots belong to us as Mexicano and not to the Anglo." I said, "When I grew up in La Joya, my father, my uncles, the kids I went to school with, this is how we dressed and, and, and we saw it as coming from the vaquero [Mexican cowboy of Mexico, not from the Roy Rogers or Gene Autry or whatever." That, that didn't enter my mind. And he says, well, he didn't say anything to me. Two weeks later he was wearing a pair of boots. Pero (But) Narcisco and I, we got along. And, and I know I could already see the wall between the academics and the, the people that were there with the degrees. And you know, because there was, it was, it was, you know, they were really starting for this egalitarian deal where students had a voice and they were on an equal par with the faculty and, and all this kind of stuff. And, and este, and the rub was coming, you know. And eventually it did lead to the split that then created Juarez-Lincoln [Alternative college in Austin] and, and, and Jacinto Trevino. And then shortly, I guess, after that Narcisco left the Valley and I think Pancho Briones picked it up for awhile. But the thing now was, was going downhill. And then the Brown Berets got hold of it and they took it to San Juan and, and, and then Juarez Lincoln stayed for awhile in the area, and then ended up in, in Austin. But, but no. . . . I had a lot of admiration for, for, for Narcisco, for standing his ground, for trying to do what he was trying to do. And, and the fact that we were able, at that time, to interact with other people that were coming in from other states. From Colorado, you know, the las platicas (the conversations) that we had there on the porch, the seminars, the rap sessions, the getting involved in the, the farm work, farm worker movement, alli en el valle. (there in the Valley.) And just trying now tambien (also), you know, support young kids that were hanging around where they wanted to, to try toget into college or get into, to Jacinto Trevino or just, just trying you know, to help them out getting through high school. Dr. Gutirrez: When Leo J. Leo asked you to, to run for the school board, did you have to campaign or did they, his machine do it all? How, how did you win? Mr. Chapa: Well of course, he had a, he had a, a machine, a machine, a political organization. But I had to campaign. And I mean, he wasn't going to let me get a free ride. I mean, he, he was a big believer that you, you had to meet the people and the people needed to know you. And, and, and so, we did a lot of door knocking and he went with me some. My, you know, my wife went with me, some I did by myself. But, but if, no, in, in a lot of local rallies in the ranchos, (farms) all these little rancherias (farm areas) that, that surrounded the Valley. Dr. Gutirrez: Now when you say the rally, how, how did that happen? What, a rally, I think platform, music. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Food. A speaker. Is that what you're talking about? Mr. Chapa: Well, we were starting. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Or just get to gather around a pit and just men? Mr. Chapa: Well, both, both. No. There, certainly there were the ones where it was just men and, and, and those were more organizational. But the ones like getting the message like, like why they should vote for our side versus the Reyna side. And what we stood for, those were, those were with platforms arriba de la troca (on top of the flat bed truck), on top of, you know, the flatbed of a truck with microphones or a bull horn and that was open. And with los tacos, la carne guisada (the tacos, the stewed meat), beer and conjunto [accordion ] music and that was for the whole community. Men, women, children. Dr. Gutirrez: Is that what they call a pachanga (political rally) today? Mr. Chapa: That's right. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. But it was called rallies back then? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. All right. Well, how much money did you spend or, or, or was it all spent by, by Leo J. Leo? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I think those were simpler times. I mean, it, it just, it still took money, but you know, really the extent of it was bumper stickers and that, and, and maybe a couple of flyers. That was, that was about it. There was no. . . Dr. Gutirrez: No radio spots? Mr. Chapa: No. Dr. Gutirrez: Newspaper ads? Mr. Chapa: Well, occasionally, not newspaper. I think occasionally we, we did do some radio. And, I think there Leo was always in charge of raising the money. And he did get it for me from some of his, you know, he had a couple of doctor, lawyer friends, Mexicanos, people like Dr. Casso, Jesse Trevinio, and people like that that would give him a few bucks. And, of course you know, you know, to pay for the spots and especially when it got real heated. And, and the elections got real heated. I mean, it really ran against, along family lines and family ties and it was Raza against Raza [Mexican against Mexican]. Dr. Gutirrez: Did your uncles vote for you? Mr. Chapa: Yet, I, my dad feels that in their heart they did. I really don't think they did because I, I know that some of my primos, my cousins sometimes, especially in some real hot elections, gravitated to. . . .. Their, their boyfriends and girlfriends were from the, from the Reyna faction and, and I just never got that sense that they did. Dr. Gutirrez: How did you all keep the family together in spite of this political competition? Mr. Chapa: Hmm. Dr. Gutirrez: Never discussed it? Mr. Chapa: I, I wonder. Because my family had gone through a hard time when, when my grandfather died and there was a big squabble over dividing up the land and all that. And they, they went through a real bad split. But by that, by the time I was already involved in politics, yeah, they were back together. They had ironed out all their differences and, and, and no, I have to say that my tios (uncles) didn't take it as bad as some other families did. They, they tolerated it and they didn't give my, my father a lot of grief about it and then eventually my father and mother came over to the Leo side. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. You were a young guy with a college degree. You get elected. Youdon't know what the school board is all about and, and you say you became the president right away? Can you tell us about the problems or the, the challenges that you faced as a, as a person being on that school board and it's presiding officer? Mr. Chapa: Well, one of the problems was, right off the bat, is that we had, we had an Anglo superintendent and I think we had an Anglo high school principal and I, I just felt that the time had come. Prior to that we had had a Mexicano superintendent and, and before this Anglo came along and, and so I wanted to get back to that. And, and, and I felt that part of. . . I thought I had, at the time, an activist agenda, you know. Again, straight out of the university and, and still part of a, what I considered el movimiento (the movement) [Chicano Movement] that I wanted to do some things, you know, there at the, within La Joya. Because we weren't dealing with, you know, like the Anglos suppressing us or whatever, but we had a lot of, a lot of poverty. There was still the issue of, of, of dropouts. And, and, and, and then also just trying to, to, to stir up the conscienceness of, of the student body. And, and, and let them know that if you are going to get, if you leave La Joya, you are going to run into some problems. You are going to, you are going to face racism. You are going to face discrimination because that's one of the things that I've found among a lot of my classmates when I graduated from high school that didn't leave La Joya. They, they, they could not believe that racism existed. They knew that poverty existed or that, that they had to work hard in the fields and all that. But a lot of the ranchers they worked for were Mexicanos and, and, and they couldn't believe some of the stories that I was telling that I encountered when I was in Austin and, and, and what racism was. So, I, and the fact that I was starting to get involved in, in the politics of Hidalgo County and the Valley, you know, or Chicano politics and, and with Raza Unida and all that. So the, I got a lot of encouragement from these older school board members. And I don't now why that, you know, these men were, they were, they were not like college educated persons, but they had a lot of, a lot of experience and, and they were, they were viewed as leaders in the different communities. They came, each one came from like a different area of the school district. And, and, and of course, Leo had always been very much involved in liberal Democratic politics. And he was like an outcast of the Democratic party in Hidalgo. And, and him and people like Dr. Casso and, and Bob Sanchez and all for their day, you know, did not fit the mold of the Democratic party inHidalgo. So, there was always something political doing. But, for our district, the deal was to, again, to get Mexicano superintendent, Mexicano leadership in, you know, in the administrative positions in the central office. And then, and then, you know, really try to focus on some of the problems, you know, that, that our students were having and that the district was having. Both financially and, and, and, and, and academically, so I, I felt that, that because, and also because I had the help of Mr. Leo, if, if people from, mostly people from the community thought that I was getting too outspoken, too much involved in, in, you know, what's. . . que la Raza Unida, que el movimiento (that the Raza Unida, that the movement) and, and this kind of stuff. That, that I didn't have any, I didn't have no problem guiding the board on, on those issues. They were, I think, in their hearts they knew it was, they knew it was right, it was part of their belief system. They didn't, they didn't see it as them being part of Raza Unida whatever, but they believed in the objective. They believed in, in, in what we were trying to do. And so, I got a lot of support from them. Dr. Gutirrez: Now you, you were reelected in 19. . . When? Mr. Chapa: Well, every three years. So, I, I served nine years in my first stint on the board. And then, and then I was asked to run. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Three consecutive terms? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: And you remained president all the time? Mr. Chapa: No. I was president for five of the nine. Five years consecutive. Dr. Gutirrez: And that was because you didn't want to be anymore or, or did somebody else challenge you or what? Mr. Chapa: No. Because I didn't want to. I think, I felt enough was enough. And then, and then yeah, by that time we, we, we started to get some younger people tambien (also) on the board. And, and then we got into this rotation system and they would, and it wasn't like. . . . The reason I think I got elected five years is just they were comfortable with it. They, they, they, they thought it was good for the board, but it wasn't like, it had nothing to do with an agreement or me like going after it. They just, that's the way they wanted it. Dr. Gutirrez: About how much time did you spend on, on school board matters? Mr. Chapa: Well, back in those days it was a lot because we would have meetings in the evening. And we would talk about, not just the agendas, but just things that were happening. And, and so in those days we were meeting, the board was really only meeting once a week. And, I take that back. I am sorry. Not once a week. We were meeting once a month and, and then with an occasional special meeting somewhere in between. And there were, there were a lot of special meetings. But it was basically just that. Dr. Gutirrez: How much time do you guesstimate it was per week? Mr. Chapa: Well, per week, in, in discussions, este I'd say maybe about five, five to eight hours. Dr. Gutirrez: What did this cost you? Mr. Chapa: Well, a lot of time that maybe I should have been with my family especially the, the night stuff. Not so much the nights because our meetings were long and, and our meetings would run until eleven, sometimes midnight. And, and, and plus the political involvement, being part of the local political faction. And, and the fact that then I started getting involved with things that, to me, always related back to La Joya. But, I was now meeting with people from San Juan, from Pharr, from Weslaco that had, you know, we had this bond that had to do with our particular brand of politics and looking at the county, looking at the state deal. And, and so, you know, we had again, a lot of rap sessions, a lot of strategy sessions, planning sessions, talking about the situation en el valle (in the Valley), the powers that be, what we were going to do. And, and aside from the fact that the IRA job that I had required a lot of out of state travel. Dr. Gutirrez: So, this is how you could afford it? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: You, that job gave you shelter and opportunity? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: They never said you can't get involved in politics or don't do this? Mr. Chapa: Well, because it was nonpartisan school board, I think that if it had been partisan, that may have caused, you know, again, problems with their grants for IRA. But you know, the IRA people were always in the background in a very supportive role to a lot of the, a lot of the student groups and, and Chicanos groups in the Valley. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. Well, so you left the school board when, the first time around? Mr. Chapa: Well, OK. I was on there for nine years and I, and I was asked to run for mayor of La Joya because they saw a very, very stiff competition coming up for Leo J. Leo. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, this is now the son? Mr. Chapa: No. Dr. Gutirrez: Oh, Leo J. Leo. OK. Mr. Chapa: It's still the father and he was mayor of La Joya. Dr. Gutirrez: For about thirty years, no? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Not quite pero, este (but, ah). . . And, and so, he asked me, he said, he said, "We've talked about it and you will probably be the strongest candidate. As a matter of fact, if you run you may not draw opposition." And, and so, I ran for mayor and I didn't, I didn't draw opposition. Dr. Gutirrez: What year was this? Mr. Chapa: This was, I think this was like '78, '77. Let's see, I got on in somewhere in-between '78 and '79 because I didn't quite finish my school board term. I was on my last year of the, of the third three year term. And I had to get out so I could campaign as mayor. So, I, I stopped like, I think four months short or something like that of, of, of finishing out my school board term. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, before we get into the mayor race, by '78 of course, the Raza Unida party was just about beginning to die; it had been discredited; and Ramsey [Muniz]is in jail; San Juan people have become Democrats; MAD, Mexican American Democrats is already grown up. When did you switch and why did you? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I think I was one of the last holdouts. I was in a meeting with the San Juan group. I remember the night vividly that they decided to leave Raza Unida and go back to the Democratic party. And because even though Ramsey was in jail, all that had happened, I still saw a role for Raza Unida. I still basically believed in the principals and I still felt that somebody had to, you know, there had to be some kind of movement to hold the, the Democratic Party's feet to the fire locally, and, and, and statewide, and nationally. And, and Ramsey was an individual. I mean, he was not, you know, if, if Raza Unida was going to die just because of what happened to Ramsey, you know, I, Ididn't, I, I mean, I knew that the impact it had. I, I couldn't close my eyes to that. Pero I still felt that, that we needed to keep going locally. And, and that, and that may not have squared with reality and, and at that time I was, I had become the, the, the executive director of Colonias del Valle [non-profit organization of unicorporated areas in the Rio Grande Valley. I had, I was, I was not with IRA anymore. Alejandro Moreno, who helped me start MASO at UT got accepted to law school. He was the executive director of Colonias del Valle. And so, I replaced him. And, and around that time it, I started running for mayor of La Joya. But the, we had a, when I was at Colonias del Valle we were located in San Juan, Texas. And I got a call from Juan Maldonado, Chuy Ramirez, a couple of other guys and we met at a bar there in San Juan. And they started laying out this whole deal about how it's time to leave the party. Ramsey ruined it for everybody. We are discredited. And, and that we needed to, we needed to now make an impact on the Democratic Party. Get in. And, I think it had to do with the emergence of MAD. They were talking about well, we have a vehicle here and but, but MAD wasn't that strong yet, that, that organized. It was still basically people like Leo J. Leo and Joe Bernal and some of these sort of older guys at the time, Democrats that, that started that. But, here we are now and it was probably around the same kind of tactic. Chuy, Jesus Ramirez, when he was a MAYO there in the Valley, took on PASO. And took on Leo J. Leo and the PASO organization at, at a Democratic, at a county Democratic party convention. And, and, and I don't know if they took it away from him or they, they made some headway. . . So, so the plan was let's do the same thing with MAD. But I, I thought at first that the conversation was a little silly because they were talking about. . . . Some of the conversation once we got beyond what had happened to Ramsey. . . And look, we are not going to win anymore elections. And all that was, you know, wearing coats and ties, shaving off our mustaches, you know, to that level. And, and I'm sitting there. And so, I made one more pitch to hold the line. I remember I, I told them I wasn't ready. I didn't think that, that we should abandon ship; that we should stick with it; and even, even if we lost, but we had to keep speaking out and we have to be accounted to, to, you know, both Democrats and, and Republicans. And, and, and speak with a, I guess you know, with a little stronger voice on, you know, the problems that, that La Raza in the Valley was facing and are still facing and all that. And so, I held out. And so, every time that therewas a comment about Raza Unida, whatever, you know, they, they kept referring people to me. Go see Amancio, go see Amancio, you know. And, and, and, and then before I knew it, you know, Juan and Chuy and some of the San Juan group had moved into the Democratic party. And they were beginning their movements in there and getting involved with some of the national campaigns mostly. And, and so,I, I think I, I probably held out for about another three to four years after they did. And it wasn't, really it wasn't until Leo J. Leo died. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: When was that? Mr. Chapa: I wish I could remember the. . . Let me see. No, I'll think of it in a minute. I have to put it together because that's when, then I made the move into MAD. And for me, you know, I guess the way my conscience dealt with is that's how I'll ease my way back in. Because I still had these very strong feelings about, you know, that, that Mexicanos still were not making an impact on the Democratic party. And yeah, it, it, sure we could have, we were now starting to have locally elected officials in county government, stuff like that. And, and so, and it was kind of like. . . . I am not going to say it was a tribute to him, but, but the opportunity came up to, to, through the La Joya MAD chapter take on the San Juan MAD chapter because there was a lot of deal cutting going on. And, and I guess, I, I still tended to be very idealistic that I always wanted to go with the more liberal of the candidate, candidates. That if we were going to get back to the Democratic party, then we had to go with whoever was more progressive. And, and my buddies of San Juan were talking political realities, "Well, we are going with this middle of the road or conservative guy," you know. "People like Bob Krueger and all that, because they have the best chance to win. And we are tired of losing." And I am saying, "No, but what," you know, "where is the philosophy; where is the," you know, "what we believe in?" And, and, and these guys may, maybe like Lloyd Doggett or people like that that, would at least articulate some support for farm workers and educational issues and stuff like that. And, and, and then I felt that, that, that that was a way to one, to give La Joya some recognition within MAD. And, secondly, I started to see some of the, some of the old faces from my days at UT that were back. And I knew that, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't going to do any good to hold out. The party was gone. And este, and so, I, and I still kind of, I keep my arms length in, in my political involvement. And I still, I still govote whether it's a Mexicano locally or, or, or if it's somebody nationally or statewide or whatever, you know. I hope I can still go with, you know, the more liberal of the candidates. And liberally, I mean, and, and I know the whole deal about, you know, the white liberals and whatever. I don't just go on the liberal label, pero whoever can still articulate some kind of progressive philosophy or at least some social sensitivity. Dr. Gutirrez: Can I assume that the, the, the leader, intellectual leader of, of the San Juan group was still Chuy Ramirez? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. Well, tell me now about the mayor's race. You were unopposed so I guess you didn't spend much money or do much campaigning. Mr. Chapa: No, no. And I was only mayor for two years. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, what was that like in contrast to being on the school board? Mr. Chapa: Well, it was very isolating because La Joya was a very small town, very little tax base. It, it was, I don't. . . . It had only been incorporated at that time, even though it had been incorporated somewhere back in the Forties, but, but it, it's charter, it died. And then Leo revived it. And I, I forget how many years he was mayor. Ten, twelve years, something like that. Maybe even shorter, but when I came in as mayor, of course, they were banking on, they, they wanted me to use my background in federal programs and grant writing and all of that. And we had some measure of, of success. Dr. Gutirrez: Was that around '79? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. About '78, '77. Dr. Gutirrez: April? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Mr. Chapa: And, and the. . . See at the time I was executive director of Colonias del Valle and, and the expectation from some of the community people, and from Mr. Leo himself, was that I would function as, as mayor/city manager. And I said, you know, "I've got a job over here and there is only so much I can do over here." And so, I sort of, you know, I held it together for them. And, and I was living in La Joya. I, I was, you know, I was never from the city of La Joya. I was from outside, from Tierra Blanca, but I had lived in La Joya, basically, at that time, you know, within the La Joya city limits. I guessfor the last five or six years or five years at the time. And. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Do you still live in a mobile home? Mr. Chapa: No. Ya no. (Not anymore.) We moved up. Now, now, now I've got a swimming pool there. Dr. Gutirrez: When did you move out of that mobile home? Mr. Chapa: About five years ago. Dr. Gutirrez: Wow. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. And, and it was very comfortable there in that, that spot because it, for having five kids and having all the schools right there, it, it was very safe, very comfortable, very, but and, and. . . Dr. Gutirrez: It was still a mobile home. Mr. Chapa: It was, pero, I think, and, and I think about that because I think that the fact that my wife and I were so engrossed in our jobs. And I was doing so much traveling that that's, it was a home. It was a mobile home. And I never had really any. . . My deal was that I never had any desires for, for the trappings of you know, mi carro (my car), cars or, or having a house. As long as you had, had. . . The family was together and you had a, a place to sleep and it was decent inside, that, you know. . . And I kept asking my kids, you know, if they ever wanted a house, and at that time they didn't. I guess they didn't see the distinction, you know. But no, but then, you know, you, you, you reach a point in life. I guess it, actually it was as I was getting closer to fifty. Then say, no, all right. Enough is enough. And the kids were. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Go ahead and finish. Mr. Chapa: . . . no. And, and so, the, what happened is basically I just went back to Mr. Leo and our political faction and I told them, I said, "Look," you know, "I miss the action at the school. There is still a lot I want to do with young people and, and that's where the action is." And, and I. . . . By that time, yeah, Billy was being groomed to, to run for mayor. And I think the two years, I was only mayor for two years, it helped sort of fend off the, the, and the guy that came real strong against Mr. Leo was Fernando Salinas. And, and had taken him on one or two years. I think twice he had come very close to unseating him. And, and I think that's why Mr. Leo said, you know, "We need you to, to fill the vacuum." And I saw it as that. I really didn't see it like I was, you know, that Iwas going to be this long term mayor of La Joya. So, I went back to the school board. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, let me ask you something that, that probably you are one of the few that can actually talk about this if, if you are willing. How did Leo J. Leo and then Billy or you, and then Billy or whichever, how did you all maintain the machine? Did you all have private meetings; did you all get together regularly; did you meet with over coffee? How did you maintain this political organization? Dr. Gutirrez: It was because I think there was a lot of community involvement. And believe it or not, even though it's been labeled a patron system, and it was, he was the leader and all that. But there was like representative input of the different ranchos. And not only from, from these men and women, but, you know, because like in many districts the school is the hub of everything. So, so people from the community, workers from the school, people who were community members were involved in, in our meetings. We didn't have like accountability sessions or where we had, we had party meetings. And we got, we got together enough leadership of the different communities to discuss things. And, and it wasn't like, like we had these big community meetings on a regular basis, but mas (more) in the different, in the different communities. And, and then especially when we were gearing up for our campaigns or issues, if, if we were being criticized for something, you know, that, that it was always open to community input. And there was, there was this dialogue from, con la gente (with the people) with the people. I think that's, that's what kept it together. That we always tried to make the distinction between us and the other faction was that the other faction, even though they were local Mexicanos, catered to the Anglo political power structure in Hidalgo County, any, any way you looked at it. That when it came time to, for county and state and national elections, they were going to side with the conservative candidate and we were going to side with the liberal candidate. Dr. Gutirrez: Now, was the, the, the bottom line here, what was in it for them; jobs? Is that what Leo J. Leo controlled? The jobs? Mr. Chapa: Yeah, oh very definitely. The jobs. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Now, now in other communities that's a very serious problem because there is always more need than there are jobs. Mr. Chapa: Right. Dr. Gutirrez: And so, families get upset. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: How did you all avoid that? Did you limit one job per family or, or how did you do this? Mr. Chapa: Well, it, it's a balancing act. And, certainly we had to do that. We had, you know, you had to look at dividing jobs up between the communities. You had to look at, at dividing jobs up among families, you know. How many does this people, does this family have? You had to weigh political involvement. You. . . And, and, and because we are still a very low in, income community. And so, you, you want to, you want to do your best by the people that are there, but, but, but you can only serve so many. And, and yeah, and, and over a period of time, you know, you start losing some of your, your, your political backing because you know, you didn't help this family. You weren't able to help them. And, but, but, you know, it's, it has sort of still worked out and still balanced out that you can, you, you, you can't employ every family. But there, the fact that, that, that we still try to make an effort to hire locally, to encourage, you know, local people to apply for the school jobs, the fact that the district now is growing very rapidly and more and more jobs, but it's still the biggest employer in the area. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you remember Cheo Sandoval? Mr. Chapa: Yes, I do. Very well. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you remember the incident that got him indicted? Mr. Chapa: Yes, I do. Dr. Gutirrez: Can you talk about that? Mr. Chapa: Sure. Dr. Gutirrez: Because what I am trying to get at is when did the War on Poverty begin to help out; what was the relationship between some of these political machines? And these programs, including yours? Because here you are school board and mayor and working with federal programs? There's got to be some sharing of jobs or, or. . . Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . .helping, say San Juan people, get jobs in your program. And as an exchange for them helping other people get jobs from their community. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: What did the War on Poverty do? Mr. Chapa: Well, it, it did a lot of things in the sense I think in the early days. But my first recollection was, I guess, the Neighborhood Youth Corps., which on the one hand, like in my community, La Joya. . . . And this was about the time I was leaving, I guess. . . Dr. Gutirrez: To go to college? Mr. Chapa: . . . .to go to college. A lot of young people had jobs in the summer and some after school. But, it also created that conflict that not only happened in La Joya, but in a lot where kids were making more money than their fathers were, you know. The fathers were still working in the fields and the kids were getting paid the federal minimum wage and, and or something like that. But it, it, and, and that, that also led to, to, I guess, some measure of political involvement. There was this, this idea that this was a Kennedy/Johnson type deal, liberal Democratic party thing. And, and, and I do, I do remember Cheo Sandoval. One, because I worked there. I was a grants writer for that program. And, and even at that, that was something that I was kind of taken in sort of kicking and dragging because I was not. . . . Because I had been involved with IRA that was trying to get. . . . We were training farm workers to take over the boards of directors that were managing the farm worker programs. Cheo fought that tooth and nail. And he would not. . . . And he had all the farm worker money. He had the farm worker, not the HeadStart, but he had everything else. All the employment programs, anything that had to do with farm workers. And, we kept saying, "You either got to spin it off or you've got to get a strong farm worker board." And he wouldn't, and he wouldn't. And he had a lot of clout with OEO [Office of Economic Opportunity], but, so we, we fought him on that. And so, I said, "I'll never go to work there until. . . " And, and because of again, you know, my, well my, my beliefs and, and my principals. I wasn't. . . . When, when IRA left the Valley and moved to San Antonio, I was left without a job. And then, so Leo says, "Hey I am on the, I am on the OEO chair's board. I can get you a job there. " And I said, "No, I don't want to work for Cheo." So, I was unemployed for fourteen months and I mean, I had tried to get a job. IRA would still give me little consulting trips every now and then when they needed a backup trainer or, or whatever. And, as a matter of fact, they had offered me a job in San Antonio to head the training division, but because I was again, just recently elected to the school board, I, I didn't want to leave the Valley.And I felt that I came down here to get involved in politics. I did not come to the Valley to move to San Antonio. And so, so I, I told Raul and Juan Gutierrez and, you know, "I, I am not going to move with the office." And, and, and but they still gave me some, some sporadic work. And, and I turned down two job offers with Cheo because I didn't agree with what Cheo was trying to do. And, and also because it was very politically controlled. I mean, it was catering to. . . . But at that time it was the new emerging Chicano mayors, you know, the little cities. San Juan, Alamo, Donna, you know, that, that now we are getting Mexicano mayors. And, and his agency was, was channeling resources, you know, to, to the different cities, you know. Jobs, trainees, building them city halls, building them maybe a community swimming pool or a park, all with federal money. And so, finally, you know, Leo called me and he said, "Mira cabron (Look, motherfucker) you, you haven't been working. You've got a family. Get your butt to work. I've talked to Cheo, he'll give you a job." And so, I went in and talked to Cheo and I got the job. And so, I was there a couple of years and, and I saw the collapse. By the time the collapse was coming, I had been hired as executive director of Colonias del Valle, who had a seat on the CAP [Community Action Program] board. And what happened is that it just, it got out of control. It got so big, and there was so much wheeling and dealing. . . . And then ,I think what happened was that, that this notion of: I've figured out a way to make money off of federal programs by creating subsidiaries. And this, and getting my, my buddies, you know, in these money making schemes with federal money that, that's what did it in. Dr. Gutirrez: But somebody had to have the guns out for him because the indictment was minuscule. It was over stamps, postage stamps or some ridiculous little amount. Seventeen dollars or twenty two. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you remember the incident? Mr. Chapa: Well, I do because, as a matter of fact, in, in. . . . I may not recall all the factors in it, it's just that the agency, again, got so big, so influential because it was providing jobs to relatives of, of political figures. Mostly Mexicano political figures. It was upsetting private enterprise because they were starting to venture out into some private ventures. Dr. Gutirrez: Of course, that was all Anglos. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Exactly. Dr. Gutirrez: And you had the higher up powerful political figures? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Or Anglos still in the Valley, no? Mr. Chapa: Right. Dr. Gutirrez: Like Senator Jim Bates. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Jim Bates. Dr. Gutirrez: So is it, is it proper to assume that the rise of Chicano mayors and political power, was seen as being supported by Cheo Sandoval. So this was the last threats, you know. . . . Mr. Chapa: Right. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . that had to be eliminated, no, from the Anglo perspective? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. I think so. But in, in, but I think that really what, what brought it down, and this is still my belief to this day. I am not saying that eventually something would not have happened. Let's say, within violations of rights because being in the inside, I think in terms of regs. . . and stuff, things were pretty clean. And, and, but yes, that it was growing in political influence and power it was. But what brought it down to me was just real stupid things. Movidas chuecas (Illicit relationships), those kinds of favors and then. . . . Plus favors like, like when, when he remodeled this old farm labor housing project that, that was built in the Forties that had these wooden frame homes. And replaced it with these brick deals. And then, he had this, you know, the wooden homes could be pulled out. And so, all of a sudden, like Leo J. Leo got a couple of them and somebody else got a few more. And then, it was always, how did they do, you know? And no bids? And favoritism? And, and a lot of people repudiate, you know. Leo. . . I, I think that's one of the things that hastened Leo's death is that, is that the newspapers all over, everybody that was dragged before this court of inquiry was like. . . . It didn't matter what you did in your life, that you stood up for farm workers. My God, you took a pay off here or you, you got something for nothing. You got this house that, that, that was bought with federal money or whatever. So you are a crook and whatever. And, and but it all started with the GOMA [Governor's Office of Migrant Affairs] scandal inBrownsville when they caught the guys from [Governor Dolph] Briscoe's office dating these secretaries from the CAP agency or the Manpower program in, in Cameron, Willacy County. And one of the secretaries that had been passed over for raises and all that, went to the, to the news media. These guys are dating the secretaries. They come down from Austin. They take them to the hotels. They went to see the Platters [recording group] at this nightclub. The word is that when they come down, we have to go out with them. And I am sitting over here in, in the next county working for Cheo Sandoval. And I remember turning to one of my buddies and I said, "It's coming over here. It's coming over. Mark my word." And sure enough,because then, they tied it into this plumber's union that got a sweetheart contract. Da, da, da. And, and then they just followed el hilo (the string). And then, over here, it wasn't so much movidas (illicit relationships) and stuff, but it was like, "How come, how come this union keeps getting these contracts without competitive bidding?" And then why this and why that? And then they just started digging and digging. And then past employees, either past disgruntled would-be political candidates, employees, then started, you know, "Ask them to look into this. Ask them to look into that. Tell them to check this. Look at this file." And then, that's the kind of stuff that started coming out. And really yeah, at, you know, bottom line is there was really very little there, but there was enough just to make it look bad. And, and I did get the feeling that, that things were beginning to get out of hand even though maybe from an economic point of view what Cheo was trying to do is, is. . . . Maybe now where it's very acceptable now in, you know, in creating these subsidiary corporations and, and all that. The mistake he made was that he got the agency CPA involved, the agency's attorney, and that kind of stuff. And some of these guys lost their licenses because they were, they were getting favoritism and, and, and all this kind of stuff. And that, and then that's what sunk it. I mean, it just, it went down fast. And then what, what I was able to do, I was at Colonias, was I was able to pick up most of the programs and take them over there. Simply because there was a. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Everybody profited by picking up little pieces? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Not because. . . ... . . . Dr. Gutirrez: There was a proliferation of non profits. . . Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . to this day. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Well, let's leave that area and go back to. . . . You, you finished your term for mayor, you want to get back on the school board, did you? Mr. Chapa: Yes. I did. Dr. Gutirrez: When again? Mr. Chapa: It was in. . . Let me see. . . . I finished up as mayor, I think, in '80. And so, I, I think by '82 I was back on the school board. And I did nine more years on the board. And that was because we had this gentleman's agreement in, in our political faction that after nine years you get off and you let, you let somebody else come on. And. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Insider term limits Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . .but of a decade almost. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: What do you think of term limits? You have them built in there. Mr. Chapa: Well, yeah, well. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Is that good or bad? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think, I am a bad example because I'm back on the school board. And so. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Again now? Mr. Chapa: Again. Dr. Gutirrez: This is your third nine year stint? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. And I don't know if I'll stay for nine years. I am just finishing up the, the first three year term of my third. Dr. Gutirrez: So, you've had almost eighteen plus three, you've got like twenty one years on the same school board? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and let me tell you why. Because we, we have, we have been trying for a long time to get new blood on, on the school board. And one of the things that has happened, much to my disappointment, is that this younger generation of school board members that came along tended to be very conservative. And I, I, I became very frustrated that these young up and coming Mexicanos from our district whoare parents, and the whole bit. . . . And it all started with the, the, the immigration issue. And, and when I got off the board this, this younger set of board members that stayed behind hired an Anglo superintendent. Dr. Gutirrez: This is in the second nine year term or, or this time around? Mr. Chapa: Oh, after I got off. Dr. Gutirrez: The second time? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. When I, when I finished my second nine years. Dr. Gutirrez: So, we are in the Eighties now? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. We are in the, no. . . We are about in. . . At, at this time there, we are already up to the Nineties. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. And, and they, and they hired this Anglo because he could speak a few words of Spanish. He, se los periquio. (He talked them into it.) And I, I, just that alone upset me. And, but they didn't see anything wrong with it. They felt he was the most qualified and he'd do right. And, and all of a sudden then we hit the national news with, with all these repressive policies against immigrant children and illegal aliens and all this kind of stuff. And then, so I started speaking out against it and, and I got interviewed on national public radio. I was like the only opposition voice. I mean, these are my friends, these are, we are from the same political faction. But, but this Anglo superintendent convinced them that our overcrowding problems had to do with all these kids coming in from Mexico, and all this kind of stuff. And so, I said, "No. I'm," you know, "I'm going to make my pitch again to the old leadership of our political faction that I want to get back on, on the board." Because, you know, I, I had something to say about that. And, and I had gotten involved through, I got involved, I got real active with the parental involvement program when I was off the board as a parent, you know. I still had kids in school and, and so I got involved with parental involvement and, and I. . . . Mostly it was a group of ladies. I mean, I also wondered why, where are the men, you know? And, and but, but also I wanted to hold the districts feet, account, you know, to hold them accountable to getting parents involved in the schools; getting back to our basic principles; stop this division. Look, our district is changing, there's no doubt about it. It's complexion, it's, it's make up. A lot of things have not gone away from the timewhen I was a student there. That, that we still have a lot of farm worker kids, we still had a lot of migrants, we still have a lot of poverty. Like sixty some odd percent of our families are still classified, you know, in the poverty levels. And, and the dropouts, the demographics have not changed. And sure, we have a lot of first generation and current generation, but our school district has, has because of the, the amount of acreage or land in our school district, there, there are colonias (unicorporated areas) going up every day. Every day. And, and to me it wasn't an issue of Mexican students from Mexico causing, they weren't the primary cause. But I was just upset that, that these guys saw it so simplistic and then they backed themselves into a corner. They wanted to get out of it. They just didn't have the guts to say, we were wrong. So, they took all these defensive postures about and, and I think they regretted it, and so they have eased up. The board has, and that's no longer the front burning issue for the district. Dr. Gutirrez: You also changed superintendents? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Mr. Chapa: We did. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Do you want to take a break? Mr. Chapa: That's fine. Dr. Gutirrez: All right. We are recording. Do you remember where we left off? You were telling us why you were going to run again and some of the endemic problems and what caused you to get angry at your own cohorts. Did any of this break up the faction or. . . Mr. Chapa: No, not really. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . realignments? Mr. Chapa: I, I think there was a realignment. But, one of the things is we had to get these, again, what I call this new generation back out into the community, knocking on doors and, and reeducating them on politics. I mean, lo que es la politica (what politics really is), you know. What politics is is face to face meeting with the people, and also circulating among, again, our traditional power base that, that which are the people of the community. And again, among the workers, you know, that, that need to hear from them. Need to interact because they, they sort of isolated themselves into: We are just thispolicy making board. You know, there, there really shouldn't be any interaction with the community. And then when the political heat, when they started drawing opposition, that was another thing that happened. After being in power so long. . . There were several years there that we got no opposition. And then they began to say, "Hey wait a minute," you know, "they are running against me. They are criticizing me." And, and then a lot of the people, a lot of our own political people, people from the community were saying, "We don't see you anymore. You don't come around anymore. You don't talk to us. We don't feel comfortable talking to you anymore." And, and, and so, that, that sort of now they are getting more politicized again or are starting to get politicized. But I, I think in the one way the faction was sort of, not, not district wide, but I think that I was, I was also being isolated because with that group I was out of step. You know, they, they were younger; they had more of a business philosophy; and, and, and they just didn't see the need for all these issue oriented things. I, I don't think they saw the broader picture. They were looking at it as just a very local kind of situation. And, and but we were able to, we were able to, to iron out our differences. I can't say I totally swung them over, but they are not as open and as active as they were before. I think they were just misguided. I don't think it's really like deep in them that, you know, what they are, especially on this whole immigration deal that, that came up. And, and, and so again, that, that's why I, I felt I, I needed to get back on because they weren't dealing with those issues. They, they. . . . With the problems as we were talking, about that are still there in our community, the, the, the demographics, the poverty, the, the. . . . The fact that we still have, I think, like forty, forty five, forty eight percent of our families still consider themselves migrant or seasonal farm workers. And, and I think that we made a lot of headway, probably with the prior generation. We are getting, there's no doubt about it, we are getting a new wave of citizens into the La Joya school district. And, and, and these are folks that are coming in at the low economic rungs of the ladder. Some of them, recent immigrants, some people from other school districts, surrounding school districts, but people that are attracted to the colonias because land is cheap, you know. And, and we're, I think that's what's driving the, the growth. And, and we don't, we really don't have a lot of major pockets of upper middle class or whatever in, in our community that we have there. So, a lot has not changed from the time I was a student. And, my, I'd say, you know, when Ifinish up this term I may be twenty one years on the board, but I, but I do see the successes that we are getting. I mean, I think things are getting better educationally. I think the, I think our leadership at the school district is getting better. I think we are still fighting the, definitely we are still grappling with trying to find solutions to the education system. What, what is it that we, we could be doing better? What is it that we, that we are doing wrong? And having to tambien (also) try some things with our own Mexicano teachers, you know, that, that are now the majority in the classroom or even our own Mexicano administrators to be creative, to be innovative, to be advocates to try different things because I, I also think that, that very little has changed in the Texas school system. And, and, and we are still fighting the Edgewood case [school finance issue], the, the distribution of resources, the, the, I don't see it all as a money problem. It has a lot to do with that. I mean, the disparity in funding, the, the, the low property rural school district, definitely that has an effect. And, in communities like La Joya that were still kind of on the outer edge of, of where the main hub of activity in Hidalgo County, a lot of our young teachers don't stay that long. As soon as jobs open up in McAllen or some of the bigger cities, that's where they want to be. And so, you know, we've got like this turnover among young teachers. And a lot of these other districts, one of the things that they've got these teachers that have been there. They, they are invested in their community. They have got their kids in those schools. They get involved in after hour activities, and, and, and, and they've got a real in, investment in their school district. I am not saying that our teachers don't care, but, but I think that, that's part of it tambien (also). And there's nothing. . . .. I, I, I think it is so frustrating to me is when you are talking to a, a, a Mexican American teacher who is supposed to be somebody that may have graduated from your district and they are still critical of the kids, critical of the parents. That's where the problem is. Da, da, da, you know. That, that, and that, you know, we, we as school board members need to keep working on that, on that sensitivity and, and, and sensitizing them and, and challenging them to, to be creative, to try to bring to us solutions. You know, not wait for the board to propose this or always the superintendent and, you know. And so, that kind of what, what still motivates me. You know, if, if I thought that I was still just a bump on the log or on the board, I mean, I'd be the first one to get off. And, and, and I, and I probably will. This probably will be. . . . I don't know ifmy last term or I may go just for one more pero (but), but I just felt that, that what was happening on the board had to be redirected. I think I've had some impact. And, and, and it, and it, it means a lot to me that, because I think that's kind of what it's all about. I mean, if you want to step into any kind of leadership position. . . . And I've got this political philosophy that is still there. Whether my political mentor is gone or whether Raza Unida is over or whatever, you know, I, I feel that my philosophy, I still believe in it. It's not just me, Amancio Chapa. But, but, you know, running. Wanting to, you know, to get my community, our, our people, you know, a better life, you know, our, our kids to, to, to move up. And, and so, that's why, that's why I stick with it. But I, I have tried to reflect on well geez man, after twenty one years, you know, have I made a difference, you know? Has the movement made a difference, in general? And, and I say yes. I think that we changed the political, the com. . . The face of, of the Valley, of South Texas through our involvement. I think the struggle still goes on. I think it's there. I mean, I am saddened by the fact that there is this generation gap between maybe our kids or the other generations behind them. . . . That, that, that have not stepped to the plate on these issues, in, in an era of Hopwood and increased tuition costs and a lot of obstacles, you know. I, I spoke to a group of high school students the other day and I said, "I can't believe that with all the obstacles the system is throwing in your way, you all aren't reacting to this," you know, "to what it is going to mean to you. That's what made my generation react," you know, "to get upset. And they are doing it to you every day. Read about it. You, you need to understand how it, how it plugs into your life, how it's going to affect you." And so, well, that, that so far is the extent of, of my involvement on the school board and somewhat my political involvement. Dr. Gutirrez: What, what has been your greatest accomplishment and your worst defeat? Mr. Chapa: Well, one of the things that, that, that I am very proud of, first of all is just the fact that, that I was able to be part of something that I think is going to be part of the history of Texas and South Texas, which was el movimiento (Chicano Movement) and, and even on a small way, you know. I, I take a lot of pride in, in that. In, in. . . . And, and I think the fact that one of, I think one of the more single incidents that, that, that I am very proud of is, is that, that I think I've tried to probably get La Joya along to a road tobe coming more interested in it's history and the history of, of our local people. Historically, politically, the whole book, and the creation of what I think is the largest, best mariachi and ballet folklorico program in the state of Texas. And, and, and not just because it's musical, but what, what it brings with it culturewise. And, and the num. . . to see the number of kids that, that are participating in these programs from elementary to high school, that it's gotten bigger than the regular band program. But, but it's more than just a, a cultural arts kind of deal. It, it, it gets kids turned on to history and pride and positive experiences. And, and, and I guess because, I am sort of credited with being the person that you just ask a very simple question, why is there not a group like this in all of the Valley? And, and, and then it got started and now all the other high schools have replicated it. Dr. Gutirrez: When did that start? Mr. Chapa: It started. . . . I think they are now. . . It was around 1978, '79, about '79. Dr. Gutirrez: There was a period there also where you had, was it called a Jalapeno Bowl or the Chili Bowl, the playoff between. . . . Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: . . . .Cristal [Crystal City Independent School District] and La Joya? Mr. Chapa: Cristal and La Joya. Dr. Gutirrez: When did that end? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think we had two, two or three games. I remember, from what I recall, the first one. . . . And you may have been on the board in Crystal City. You all came to La Joya, then we went to Crystal City. And I took a lot of heat because the La Joya fans were convinced the refs stole, not stole the game, but the refs were very poor. And they, they, you know. . . . And, and I, I mean it got to the point. . . . "So that's the Raza Unida?" "That's how you treat La Raza?" "No, no, no, no." But we were still open game for it. I really don't know what happened administratively, but, but the, the next year would have been back in La Joya and, and it wasn't a conscious decision or anything. I, I don't know how we lost communication with them. Maybe you left the board and the interest wasn't there. I mean, I, I stayed on the school board, I don't know if we had a change in superintendents in La Joya at that, right after that. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, you did. That fellow went to, to the Texas Institute or something. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Well actually. . . Dr. Gutirrez: He went to Pearsall or something. Mr. Chapa: . . . .yeah. He went to Pearsall and then messed up over there. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, let me ask you then, these are going to be disjointed questions, but they're, they're kind of quick answers or, or you can take it a long time. Billy Leo just lost now several races. Is he over; is he totally discredited; is he still the head of the, of your machine, your faction or, or who is the new boss? Mr. Chapa: Well, a new boss has not emerged. It may now be getting maybe more to a committee system. We wanted Billy as a figurehead. What happened, when Billy went to the county, he lost touch with La Joya. He, he, he did. And, and I think got too sucked up into state Democratic Party politics. And, he lost his base in La Joya. He regained it this time because he really worked at it. He really, but he's got some building to do. I don't, I, I can't, right now, at this point in time, I can't gauge whether Billy still has the energy even to try to pick up lo que hay en La Joya (what there is in La Joya). So basically those are, those that are still on the board and, and at the city level are still keeping the faction, the political faction going. It's there if Billy wants it as a figurehead because that name. . . . And, and it still means something in that community. But, but we are trying to get, it, it's more. . . yeah by, by committee consensus that we do things. Whether he can make another go at it countywide, I don't know. I mean, I know that financially this race took a lot out of. . . . Now this is the second time that he lost to the same guy. So in, in terms of county stuff, Billy, unless he, and he just came up short on money. And, and he got started too late, so I don't know if, I don't know if he can. Some, somebody thought that if Billy had gone for county commissioner or something or gone back to his old job, run for county, este. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Clerk? Mr. Chapa: . . . .clerk he probably could have got it. Pero he says he is going, he is just going to concentrate now on solidifying his base in La Joya. Because that, that, that's what gave him and his dad their deal. The fact that La Joya could deliver, you know, and move politically, that there was a political organization out there. Dr. Gutirrez: How many of those are we talking about in La Joya? Mr. Chapa: Well. . . Dr. Gutirrez: I mean, what is it that ya'll can deliver? Mr. Chapa: . . . .in, in, in the old days it was about, it's been about two thousand, two thousand, a hundred and with a potential of, of, of I'd say maybe well, potentially about three, about three to four thousand. Dr. Gutirrez: Out of all of Hidalgo County? Mr. Chapa: Well, Hidalgo County, yeah, is probably at about, I guess, we are at about half a million or so pero. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Votes? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. No, no. I, I don't know what the total voting strength in the county is. That, that was population wide. But La Joya is really basically three precincts, three voting precincts. And, and so, it's still enough to swing even a county election if you can get them, you know. And that's the deal. If you can get, get them out to vote fifty, sixty percent and, and get them to go, you know, for a group of candidates or a candidate, you know, it does have an impact. Dr. Gutirrez: What are you all going to do, this committee of consensus with the nephew [Juan de Dios Salinas, III] of Fernando Salinas who just won county clerk? Are you all going to recruit him or is he already in with you guys or. . . ..? Mr. Chapa: Well, right now. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: There's a bright young star here. Mr. Chapa: . . . .well, there, there is a little rub with, with his, his uncles. And, and one, because Fito [Jose Salinas] took on the mayor. And Fernando continues just to agitate out there, but Fernando is not a political presence anymore. J. D. the III or the IV, I don't, the, the young guy is, is a real decent kid. And, and I don't know how we'd play it, you know, in terms of he's a, he's a, he's a La Joya guy. But I don't know if he's distancing himself because the headline in the paper was: Alamo Man Wins County Clerk Position. And so, you know, I guess his wife is from Alamo and he lives in Alamo. And so, it was, it wasn't La Joya's young man. He is an up and comer. He drew more votes than, than the county judge candidate, [Eloy] Pulido. Dr. Gutirrez: Out of La Joya or a total? Mr. Chapa: Total. And, and out of La Joya. And, and, and the people from our political faction voted for him. Dr. Gutirrez: Is that, is that a, a forecast that the Valley voter, Valley voters are interested in young, new, untainted talent? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. And I hope it stays that way because J. D. was also getting very close to the Edgar Ruiz machine. I mean, and, and. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: And he worked for him one time. Mr. Chapa: Yes, he did. And, and, you know, I, I, just as an observer, I, I got a little bit concerned, not so much because. . . . Yeah, this stuff was starting to happen. All the talk. And he is a very young, clean cut kid. And, and, and, and I said, "Man, I hope they don't drag him into this, this stuff because that's what it is." And. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Have you, have you been active with the school board association at the state level or national level? Mr. Chapa: Not, not since the last time. When I got to be chairman of the Texas Association, the Mexican American School Board Association, I guess, in my second nine year term when we were more active. We had a very viable organization. And then I got to be national chairman of the, of the whatever they call the, the National Caucus of Hispanic School Board Members which is a caucus within the National School Board Association. So, I, you know, I was interested, active in that. When I got, when I got off the, I was out of the board for six years. So I lost all my contact with it. And, and it's kind of fallen tambien on both groups are not as strong, I think, as they were back then. I want to see it build up again. I don't know if I want to try to step back in any kind of leadership position. I mean, I, I, there was a time there that, that I was the president of a barrio association, a school board member, and the status, the Mexican American. And, and then that, that national caucus. And the, the deal was there took to make a president, again, because Afro Americans had, you know, the majority of, of the say in these organi, in, in the state and national organizations. And, and, and I think the other thing that I was, I guess, the highest that I got within. . . . And I don't even consider it the Democratic party, but was I was the, the state vice president of MAD, at one point. And I think, when things were more exciting. Dr. Gutirrez: How have those affiliations helped you or how have you helped them? Mr. Chapa: Oof. Dr. Gutirrez: Is it worth your while to be involved in all those things? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think, I think it's worth my while in the sense that, that I have to have, I believe in what I am doing and I, and I've got an outlook, you know, to, to I guess, put my political beliefs to practice and, and, and trying tambien, hopefully impact, you know, you know, our, the Chicanos impact on either the Democratic party or state politics or whatever. I, I don't know that I, that, that I contributed very much other than just my, my background, my experience to try to, to try to at least voice support for, for more, more progressive agendas este. I know that one of the things that we were trying to work on when I was involved with MAD was trying, trying to see if we could link, do some linkage with, with the Afro Americans and, and try to get a real meaningful foothold in the Democratic party. I mean, to really start moving it into the control of the, of the, the, the, the Mexicanos and, and, and minorities. And, and but, but whether any, any single thing that I did have a significant impact, no. I, I know that I was involved in some skirmishes within MAD, for example, again, on philosophical issues on whether we went with a Bob Krueger or we went with a Doggett or, or, or somebody else, even, even, even among our own candidates. Yeah. Este, and by the way, for the record, este though I wasn't directly involved in your campaign, but, but you were my candidate for, for that position. And, and, and, and I, you know, I still hold to that. And I try to get at least whoever is in my sphere of influence, you know, to, you know. . . . I always make it very clear where I'm at. Where I'm going. Who my candidates are, and I've always been on the losing end. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, you were again. I walked La Joya, but I didn't carry it. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: And I walked it all. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. And, and I think and, and there is one of the things that tambien has always held me back is that basically after the IRA stint, you know, I've worked with these programs. And, and so, I've always had to be very conscience of how far to the edge I can get, you know, become you know, baggage to the non-profit that I'm involved with. And, and I think I've learned to, how to do work other ways so that it is not. . . I don't drag Colonias del Valle or Amigos del Valle, whoever I am working with at the time, that it brings on heat. Because, for awhile there, I was a very visible person in the Valley. You know, being asked to comment on this or that and mostly political stuff.And, and, and so, I've always had to, I, you know, I've always had to walk that line. But, you know, like I say, it's, I think that's about, that, that would be, I, I think, the extent of my, my contribution is, is try, I, I've always tried to be the conscience of whatever group I'm in. Dr. Gutirrez: How about political party, of the Democratic. . . .? Were you ever a precinct chair; were you ever a state delegate or national delegate? Mr. Chapa: No, I think. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Any state office other than MAD? Mr. Chapa: No. I think maybe at one time just coming out of La Joya I attended a couple of county conventions of the Democratic party. Dr. Gutirrez: Is that Billy's job, because he's still very much an office holder in the Democratic party hierarchy? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Billy, his wife, and, and some of the local folks. In terms of precinct chairman, I've never been a precinct chairman. I think the most I ever did within the Democratic party was like be a La Joya delegate to the county convention. And the rest was just my involvement in MAD. And then, really, I got out of MAD when all this game playing came about. Dr. Gutirrez: The split? Mr. Chapa: That LULAC. . . . Not just the split, but false chapters. The numbers game we were getting into which I thought was ridiculous because the, the gringos knew what we were doing. But, but and, and then, the fact that it, that it created arguments again amongst us, you know. Not even decent arguments. I mean, if it was an argument over philosophy or whatever. . . . But to me these were arguments over controlling the money of the national campaigns and, and who, and then who was going have a say so in the state and national. And I saw this guy. . . . Watch us just playing us off against each other. Because from where I sat back home. . . . When I would talk to whether it was Juan Maldonado or Billy or whoever the person was, you know, they were arguing, Beto Salinas there, they were arguing over the moneys, the campaign moneys, you know, for these gabachos (white guys) campaigns. That's what, that's what it was about. And it was, and it was a power struggle. And I'm telling them where is the farm worker position? Where's the housing piece? Where's the advocacy on education? I remembergoing to a MAD, a MAD convention in Austin. And, and, of course, it was election, you know, election time. And here, there is this major forum being held by Al Kauffman on the funding and the status of the, the lawsuit on the education funding. And everybody is at the polit. . . There was nine of us in this room. And I thought that was the main important issue for our people. And they were over there arguing over Norberto Salinas and somebody else and whatever and, and I said, "No. No. No. No." This is all about political power, which I understand. I know how the game is played, but I, I want no part of that. I mean, the, the . . . Plearme (Fight) as to who is going to handle Dukasis' money or Gore's money? And, and those what, those were what the arguments were about locally. And, and that caused a lot of animosity down there and so that, that, that to me is the waste of my time. I mean, and that's. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: For a long time the, the Valley politicians at all levels touted the fact that the Valley vote was the Mexican American vote and that's what was the swing in the state. Mr. Chapa: Uh huh. Dr. Gutirrez: I think those days are over because you got more votes in Houston. Mr. Chapa: Sure. Dr. Gutirrez: You got more people in, in Dallas than you do. . . In, in the Dallas Metroplex than live in the Valley. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: And you've got more office holders now in other areas than in the Valley. How is that going to, to affect the, the, the hegemony that the Valley once had over Chicano politics in general and the Democratic party? Mr. Chapa: Well, that's something that I don't even think is, is being contemplated. I don't think anybody has even sat down to look at that, but you are absolutely right. I mean. . . And it's something that the body is going to have to. . . . I don't know if they have to contend with. . . . I would hope that what it is if they see strength in that, in that, it's no longer just limited to the South Texas border, but now, you know, that we are Raza, we are Mexicanos, we're Latinos, whatever. And that, and that, that we are in Houston, we are in Dallas, we are in Lubbock, you know, and, and, and we're politically active in those areas. And so, that we've got the gabacho (white guy) squeezed in, or we are inhis back yard, now. And, and so, I would, I would hope that we would look at it on a positive basis instead of Valle (Valley) versus North Texas and whatever. And, and that, and that we look for ways to building on that strength, and networking that strength. Now, in terms of just raw political power, about the distribution of resources and what you can attract to your. . . . Well, those games are, those, those kind of politics are always going to be played. But, but I don't think anybody can overlook or, or este the fact that there is becoming this growing diversity with this growing number of elected officials in areas that traditionally, you know, there were fewer or no Mexicanos in, in elected positions. In that, in that, that these areas are really growing and exploding in, in what they are doing, you know, politically and, and in their numbers. So. . . Dr. Gutirrez: As, as you move away from Starr County and, and away from the west end of Hidalgo, La Joya and that, that portion, maybe even Mission, are there any machines left all the way to Brownsville or is it all gone? Mr. Chapa: I think they, they are gone. From what I see because even the new machines that came in are gone. Dr. Gutirrez: Why is the Valley more conservative than other places? What, what is it in the Valley that causes that? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I've wondered that myself. And one, one of the things that I've looked at, I think that, I think the Anglo dominance of politics and, and, and the economy for many years, you know, had, you know, kind of put down more. I am not blaming it on our parents and grandparents, pero there was. I had this very distinct sense when I was growing up that the older folks feared the bankers. They feared their, their bosses. And, and, and so, in terms of speaking up politically, that's why those of us that came back from, from out of Valley. . . . Universities back to the Valley, couldn't understand why our, our classmates didn't speak out. Didn't, you know. . . And they don't have to do, you know. . . Because I remember the first lectures I got, not from my mom and dad, but just from older people in the Valley about being respectful, about why we were yelling. Why were we marching, you know? Why wasn't it yes or no sir? I think that had a lot to do with it. And I think it had to do also with the institutions. The school being primary among, you know, teaching Mexicanos what your place is. And so, among a lot of Mexicanos it was like, you know, "Shhh! No, you don't talk that way." And even, evenjust like, like when, when, when. . . I, I faced this when we came up with the, when we organized the mariachi program in La Joya. I remember running into a doc.. a couple of doctors from McAllen that, that had come to see one of their concerts. And they, and they stopped me during the intermission and they said, "You know what Amancio? Only in La Joya could this be done." And, and I said, "Why?" And they said, "You know why?" They said, "Because in La Joya you all don't care what the gringo says and in McAllen we do." And, and, you know, that gave me the answer because that was my answer. Why has no school district in the Valley ever had a mariachi or looked at it like if other schools could have jazz bands and all that, why not here? And, and, and so, it was, it was this mentality. And I, and as a, a young person growing up, when I would hear the adults talking, at least around politics times, you know. . . . About how, you know, like when Mr. Leo ran. . . . He ran a couple of times for county commissioner. His own compadres (sponsors at rites of passage) could not endorse him publicly because they had notes at the bank. And, and that stuck in my mind. And, and I think tambien because the Valley to me was very tambien provincial in the sense that if you never left the Valley, if you went to high school there, went to Pan American [UT-Pan American at Edinburg], went back to your hometown, that's, that was your world. And, and you are among Raza all the time. Then, you didn't see that out and out discrimination of what the gabacho (white guy) was doing to you, and so, no, there's no racism. No, we don't have a problem. There may be some economic problems, but, but it's not because of race, not because of the gabacho.. He's doing this and, and I just, you know, I couldn't understand it. I said, "Open up and look at," you know, "take a good look at what's happening." And, and so, that's part of what I attribute it to. I, I'm not so sure it has to do with all this stuff porque dicen (because they say) because we're, you know, we're basically conservative and, and all of that. Because when it comes to speaking out, getting politically involved, advocating, you know, on any issue whether it's the arts, whether it's the politics, whatever, for your people, for your community, they do tend to make more conservative. . . . And I think a lot of it is, is the lack of, of exposure, you know, to outside ideas, to what the system, the power structure that was there. I, I still think that a lot of, there is still a lot of that mentality there. I think a lot of, a lot of damage was done by the school districts in, in the Valley, and not just in the Valley, but all over Texas. Anytime,you know, about again, you know, you knew your place in society and, and, and, and these were the patrones, these were the bosses. This was the Mister. And, and, and this, still this kind of fear of retaliation that if I get involved politically or I speak up, somebody is going to retaliate against me. And so, you know, they pick and choose their battles and, and Raza, they just choose not to get involved. Dr. Gutirrez: We haven't even begun to talk about your involvement with the National Council of La Raza and, of course, your Colonias del Valle, Amigos del Valle, and god knows what other things you got involved in. You, you talked at length about the school board; you've rendered service to the city; you've been involved with the political faction; you've been involved at a national level, state level, why do you do what you do? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I guess because. . . . I don't know. I, I think it, it's something my father. . . . I guess growing up poor. And, my father, even though he came from a ranching family that had land wealth at one time,and, and yet struggling in his life as, as the youngest son of this family. And not being into farming and ranching and, so forth, he basically did was. . . . He sold off his land to his brothers because he had the bigger family and, and he had his own set of problems. But, but no matter how poor we were and we were on welfare and living in the housing projects, my father instilled a lot of pride in us and in being Mexicanos, in, in being from an old family. Not, not in an aristocracy, anything that has to do with aristocracy, but just, you know, your grandfather was a respected man in his community and he was always trying to help his fellow man, you know. He always did this. He was religious. He was always helping people that, that needed a job, work on the ranch, este, and, and, and my dad always told us that no matter how poor you are, you need to, you need to be involved in, in helping los pobres (the poor). And we'd get all the lectures about the poor Chinos (Chinese). La gente pobre. (The poor people.) He never talked about us being poor, about, you know, living in the projects and, and whatever. Like I said we, I never felt I was poor. But, but I guess when I got older, and then you reflect back on it, my dad would come home with a box of commodities, you know. And, and, and we got evicted from a couple of places este. Not, not real drastically, but my dad would say, "It's time. We can't pay the rent. We got to move." Este, but that, that was just something in me that just came natural. I, I really don't know why. And, and, and I think my father raised a group of children that alwaysquestioned authority. Not him or, you know, he wasn't like overbearing. But my, my father was always talking about if he saw something wrong at work. . . . If, if there was something wrong with the, where we were living. . . . If somebody, if a, a policeman hassled somebody or there was something that he read in the paper, you know, we'd hear his pounding arm and it was always pro la persona (in favor of the person). And, and stand up for your rights. And so, we were a very, not argumentative, but it was that we would argue among ourselves, but we were always questioning authority. Teachers, administrators, why, why this? Why, why did you tell this person that? Why, you know, why are we doing this? And, and, and my brothers were very much like me. I mean, they didn't, they, they got involved to some extent, but in school they were always questioning authority especially if it didn't make sense. If it was, you know, if there is a capricious act or just because I am the teacher, just because, because I tell you so. We were taught to question. And, and, and I guess that was part of my, my involvement. But, I think more than anything was because of, of wanting, you know, our people to be equal and be treated equal just, whatever, it is on a Christian basis, on a, on a human basis, that, that's all. That's, that's what, I think that's what that motivates me or motivated me back then. That, what is wrong is wrong. And, and when you have a class of people that are being wronged and have been wronged, somebody has to, to step forward and, and, and speak out. So, in a very small way, I think that's what led, that led to my involvement. Dr. Gutirrez: You've used the word leadership several times. You've been in it; you've been the leader in many cases; would you care to define it? What is leadership to you? Mr. Chapa: I, I think leadership is using what, what, whatever talent you've got. If, if you can connect with people and you can articulate needs, ideas. . . If you can move, move people, not just for your own agenda, but if you can express their desires, once they let you be the leader. . . . I think that leadership is, is, is, is just being a, a, a, a public servant. But, but being able to, not backing down when, when, when your cohorts or a community or a club or whoever it is asks you, "Sabes que, (You know what,)" you know, "we want you to head, we want you to be the spokesman. We want you to ar, articulate our position and we want you to represent," you know, "express our ideas and represent them for us." That, that you do step up and, and do it. I, I think that it, it bringswith it a lot of responsibility. I think you have to be very open and never dilute yourself that you, that this is about your ideas, that this, you know, what you want, your agenda, all of that. That, that has to play a, a, a part in it, but, but a leader is, is somebody that, that, that, that the, the people, the group, whatever, put forward. And, and, and again can, can articulate what their desires, what, what they want to get accomplished. And hopefully do it in a way that, that rep.., you know, that, that you're true to, to, to what's expected of you, to what the, the people's desires are, and, and I think, I think someone that regardless of age, that you try to put that. I, it, I don't know. Sometimes I guess my dad always used to use this term, "Un Don de Dios" (A gift from God). And, and I think that in to some, some extent. . . I don't know if I am, though I've been in these positions and, and I can't say well I've never been a leader, I'm not really a. . . . No. I've been in those positions. And I think that, that whatever it was about me, it, it did, you know, era como un Don. (it was like a gift.) I mean, that, that came from somewhere that was part of my being, that, that people saw that in me. And that the, and that you don't, you don't use it, you don't betray people's trust in, in using it. But if there is nobody behind you, then you are not a leader. I mean, it takes people to create a leader, put up a leader. Dr. Gutirrez: In the Valley, who is the most effective Mexican American leader today? Mr. Chapa: In the Valley? Well, I can't. . . To tell the you the truth, I can't point to, to a single person, let's say a single individual. Dr. Gutirrez: How about in the state? Mr. Chapa: I can't do that either, because. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: How about nationally? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think, well, OK, nationally, I have to say I have a lot of admiration for, for Raul Yzaguirre. I had a tremendous amount of admiration and, and did consider a leader in, in Caesar Chavez. I, I think and, and not because you are here, but, but I think that, that you certainly. Caesar Chavez. And, then Corky, people like Corky Gonzales had a big impact and effect on, on, on leadership that, that is needed and it was needed for the, the Chicano community in the United States and the Latino community. You know, and I'm really kind of a, right now in Texas, you know, at a loss to articulate. I like to, at maybe at different levels, you know, I'd have, you know you pick out names that maybe like Gonzalo Barrientos, you know, to some extent. I, I think there is someleadership coming up with some of the, maybe even some of the new emerging groups. I've been very disappointed in people like Dan Morales and, and Supreme Court Judge [Raul] Gonzalez. And I don't consider them leaders and, and not just, you know. . . And to me it's not a, a leader is not somebody that holds a public position, necessarily. And I think, I think we've got kind of a vacuum, right now. And I think that we've got, we've got leadership in different areas. I mean, the fact, for example you know, I know that you've been very involved in the Dallas/Houston area and provided leadership there. And there's other people that, that are emerging and are current leaders in those areas. I think in the Valley, it's the same thing. I think the jury is still out on whether politically, let's say Mr. Pulido is going to be a leader. I think we still have local, a lot of local leadership that still somehow, sometimes comes together on, on certain kinds of issues, but, but I am afraid that it's getting more and more fractionalized. And, and, and, and I really wish that, that, that, I think that one of the things that's missing is that the leadership is not focusing again on the needs of the community, but really, the so called leaders are focusing too much on the political. And, not even the political agenda. Political campaigns. And, and so, I think that's one of the real difficulties that I have in, in deciding like who, who are the political leaders. Certainly, I think people like Leo Montalvo where he's positioned himself there in McAllen has the potential for at least being a spokesperson on certain kinds of issues. I think it's too, too early to tell on some of the other elected officials, but, but, but leaders tambien come from, from community organizations be they non-profits or just be they people like from la comunidad (community). And I think that those people are still yet to be recognized and, and be heard from. Dr. Gutirrez: Why are you disappointed in Morales and Justice Gonzales? Mr. Chapa: Well, because I think that on some of the, the things that have come before them on educational issues especially. . . That the positions they have taken. . . And I think pronouncements that they, they made, that made it on their own and, and that they didn't need any help from anybody and that they are independent. And I find that they are independent, that's one thing, but, but you never, I've never heard them really articulate any, any strong position for our people, you know. And, and, and al contrario (on the contrary), you know, has really kind of been they get real defensive, you know. Well,Clements appointed me and I'm, I'm a Supreme Court Judge and I can do this. And then, lately with what Morales did, I mean, on the Hopwood thing. I mean, that, that's where, in that sense, that's where, I certainly didn't expect them to be like real true advocates for La Raza, you know, that to really make all kinds of pronouncements knowing their backgrounds. . . But man, I mean, the, and it's like they go out of their way. . . . Dr. Gutirrez: Which is the most effective Mexican American organization today? Civil rights or any other kind at whatever level. Mr. Chapa: I guess because I'm, maybe because I'm close to it I'd have to say National Council of La Raza. I want to see the, the UFW get, you know, get back on firm ground and, and you know, it's hard to fill, to fill Caesar's shoes. But right now those, those are about the only two I can think about. Dr. Gutirrez: Black/Brown relations. What do you think are the underpinnings of tension between African Americans and Mexican Americans? Mr. Chapa: Well, I know that right now they, they couldn't, maybe we are at a worse point. I, I, I don't know if there is any kind of initiatives that is going on by anybody, you know, to at least set up a dialogue. I mean, it, it be, I think it would be a, a, to our detriment, I mean, to, to Black American and to us, you know, to really go at it, you know, fight amongst ourselves and, and just let the gabacho (white guy) be looking down at us. I mean, we got to at least talk about it. And, and granted I know that, I know that, that the Afro Americans are, are, are, probably feel very threatened at this point, getting very defensive, very combative in, in different communities around the state and, and the nation in terms of what's happening with the Latino growth. But we've got to find some way to, to, to, to bridge that gap. I, I don't know how we are going to do it. I mean, but, but in terms of, again, in terms of race relations it's going to. . . . I know that it's going to be very difficult for them to give up ground. They are not gonna want to give up. There's been a lot of pronouncements in the media and all that. Some of the comments that were made here today, you know, like they, they are not going to get it. They are convinced that they single handily fought the civil rights struggle. And, and but, but if there is strengths in number, I don't know if we are at the point yet that, that, that alone, you know, as the fastest growing minority in the U. S., you know, that it wouldn't be beneficial to us if we were both working together. That, what I mean, I mean I knowthat's very idealistic, but, but the fact that, that, that we. . . . And, and I know from some, some things that I've heard from Raul where they've made some attempts at the national level in D. C. to sit down and it hasn't been working very well. That, that's, you know, that's, that's a real sad thing to see. Dr. Gutirrez: Personally, what was, what has been your worst experience working with the African Americans and what's been your best experience? Mr. Chapa: Well, I've had probably very little opportunity to work with African Americans. I, I have to say that. Except for my college days. And, and I guess my best experience is that on some of the boards that I, that I sit on, like the housing assistance council and some other boards that I've been involved with, I've, I've met some very active members in the Black community that, that came up tambien through the Black civil rights struggle. We get along great. I mean, a lot of real, and we talk about these things. They are concerned. These are very, very open, very level headed kind of people that are still very much in their communities. In Mississippi, in, in Georgia. . . Dr. Gutirrez: So, these are national boards? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Housing Assistance Council? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Well, how about relations between Chicanos and Mexicanos? What are they like in your area, from your perspective, and what ought they be like? Mr. Chapa: Well, they, OK, what, what they are like in, in my area. . . I think there is a tension there. I don't think it's as bad as perhaps others parts of the state. I, I think on, on our side of the, for our people in el Valle (the Valley) I think there's, there's a great misunderstanding. You know, we've always looked at it that Mexicans didn't want to understand us and recognize us, but we are, we are as ignorant of them as they are about us. And that, and that's what causes tambien some of these tensions like when we were having the situation in La Joya over immigrants and, and illegal aliens and all this kind of stuff, is that the perception that we have of each other and that people have, "Ah, no pagan nada." (They don't pay anything,) , you know. And, and, and I find that there's a lot of misperceptions. I said, "Well, that, that's going to be a pretty sad state of affairs if we are already gearing up this sort of war mentality against the Mexicanos de Mexicoespecially along the borders." It's bad enough that, that, you know, it's becoming a militarized zone, but then, you know, a lot of our people are getting real defensive. And I don't even. . . I don't really think they, they, they understand why they are getting defensive except that there is blurbs in the paper. And this and, and. . . . They never stop to, you know, they don't stop to think about before you make a statement, like they don't pay any taxes. They are getting a free ride. And, and it's not explained to them how the tax system works. And how ,yes, they do contribute. And do you really know how many of them are on welfare and, and, and how many of them are working and all this kind of stuff. I, I would hope, and I am seeing, on, on the Mexican part now some openness to at least dialogue and, and with, with, with people on this side of the border, you know, with politicians, with school board people, with community people about understanding each other. You know, we want to know more about the Chicanos and, and, and again, you know, what can we do together? How can you help us; how can we, we help you? But granted there is still a lot of misunderstandings. There's a potential, I mean, the potential for, for mutual support of each other on just on an array of issues that, that and I think it is tremendous especially along the border. Not only in commerce, but in cultural exchanges in, in ideas about education and teacher exchanges and, and even you know, I've been wanting to get teachers from Mexico to come and teach in La Joya. And, and we do have some, but, but, but you know, not as many as I, as I'd like to see. But I, I think that, that it's opening up a little bit more and, and, and but there is still the, there is still a lot of this mistrust, misunderstanding. And, and I think it's incumbent about, on a lot of us that have access to information to try to make sure that, that, that the correct information is out there especially like on these initiatives on whether they are, they are taking our jobs or they are packing our classrooms. They're, you know, that they're the cause of all of our problems in the Valley. And, and, and that they're soaking up, you know, inflating the welfare system, you know, and that we stop and, and look at these things. One of the things that's, that's happening in, in, for example in La Joya, we're, like it or not, we're becoming Mexicanized. I mean, if you walk into some of our elementary schools and it's like you walked into a school in, in Mexico. And that doesn't bother me in the least. And right now the community has not reacted to it. The, the first generation of Mexicano parents are very active in the parental involvement and theycome up with ideas and, you know, because they bring this tradition from Mexico about how, you know, they're, they're involved with their kids especially at the elementary level. And a lot of our tambien local, you know, Raza from their, you know ,again, you know, pero and, and I don't see the rub. It's not until somebody comes along and starts shaking and sticking, yeah, there is a difference there, you know, they are getting something for nothing and they are doing this. So, to look for, for tambien, to look for what opportunities we can get by, by, by mutually, you know, understanding and supporting each other, hopefully we will, you know, sometime and in the long run, it will pay off for, for, for both sides. But there, there's a lot of education that needs to go on. But I, I see a, a sort of a, a, now a willingness among more Mexicanos de Mexico to, to reach out. Before, you know, they were very blunt. We don't want. . . . We want to do deal with Othal Brand because it's. . . We want to talk to the money. We want to talk to the power, you know. Sure you guys, you know, pueden (can) talk, but you can't help us, you know. No nos pueden ayudar. (You can't help us.) We need to talk to the, the big guys, but now, no. Now, now they are getting into looking what, you know, what's happening with these propositions in California, you know, what we can do as Mexicanos on, on the U. S. side of the border and Mexican Americans, Chicanos, you know, the U. S. citizens to, to, to, to, to you know, mediate some of the repressive attitudes toward Mexico. So, you know, hopefully some of the newer generation, some of the, you know, you know, will, will take those battles on. Dr. Gutirrez: What is the most pressing issue facing Mexican Americans today? Mr. Chapa: Well, I, I still have to say our economic. I don't think that we are economically. . . Well, we are still economically powerless. And I don't think we are anywhere near the political potential that we should be at or the potential is there. We are not there. Aside, you know, from. . . And then, the problems in education and, and, and jobs; I mean, that, that puts, and, and one, you know, one follows the other. I, I can't, but I'd say again, I don't think that we are up to for our numbers where we should be at. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. This is the last question other than, you know, at the end if you want to say anything, talk about whatever we left off or something I didn't follow through or, or I didn't give you an opportunity to, to elaborate. You said that the National Council of La Raza was the most effective Mexican American organization. You have beeninvolved with, with the organization and with Raul, director, the only director in recent times. He's been there fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years. You, you are good friends. You've worked with him before, etc., etc. You have a unique vantage point. Why did you say that? What is it about this staff-led, unaccountable organization, that has got more corporate white Americans sitting on his board, that depends on other people's money, not ours? All of those are very dangerous kinds of things to say. Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: Why is it the premiere? What do you know that everybody else doesn't know? Mr. Chapa: I, I guess what I am looking at is, is the public image of perception. You know, and, and the fact that, that, that at least they, they try to do, you know, some measure of policy analysis. And, and I think that, that a lot of our organizations have gone, gone by the wayside and, and they have not been as, as up front. I know that there is groups all over the country in, in communities and colonias and barrios and neighborhoods that are doing good work. I just don't know about them. I think a lot of them. . . . I think that's why this point about success stories and struggles needs to be brought forward because, because right now they are the ones that are getting the most publicity. That doesn't make them the best, most effective, but I do think that having known Raul, knowing where his head is at, and, you know, where he comes from, you know, that, that and what he is trying to do, I, I'd have to say that right on a national basis, compared to the other. . . . Because we don't have that many, again, national organizations. I mean, you know, you can go to G. I. Forum, LULAC, the Chamber of Commerce, whatever, you know, they, they are all doing their thing. And I'm sure to a certain extent, they are doing some good stuff. I think the one that is trying to take off, take on, you know, some of the issues that, that, that are on a broader sense, that, that continue to plague our community is NCLR. At least they try to speak out, challenge, educate the lawmakers. Hopefully, it's up to us down at the local level as affiliates. . . I don't, and I do disagree with them. And I don't always agree with, with every position they take, but, but at least they're, they're trying to get out there in the forefront, and because that's what we need. I mean, we, we are still kind of an in, invisible people on, on, on the national scale. So, I think they are the closest that comes to that. And, andyes, and I worry about a lot of the same things that, that you commented on. The, the position of the affiliates, what happens at the grassroots level, the influence of corporate America, the influence of tobacco companies on the board, the conference, that kind of stuff. I mean, when we keep, we bring it up, we discuss it, we debate it. As long as you, you, you continue to let them know that we have not taken your, our eye off of them. . . And, and, and hopefully there will be other organizations that will come along and be as effective. But I think right now and, and I certainly , that's the one I said. Maybe it's because it's the one I'm closest to. But, but again, I know that there's, there's state associations, there's other groups working. And then some of, some of them you know, we just have to, we've gotta kind of like reorganize. I mean, you know, it's like I say like the Mexican Americans for one, you know, we were strong there for awhile, then it went almost totally inactive and then every now and then it raises it's head. And the same thing with MAD and Hispanic Americans, and all of them. And these guys, at least, are, are there. They are sticking to it. They, they are persevering and, and I think at least Raul has a forum now that, that he can speak up. I, I really would like to see the, the national Latino, you know, that Univision, Telemundo [Spanish language television networks] and all those that come into our homes give more, you know, more coverage, more opportunities for, for Chicano leaders to speak out and speak out on issues. Because that's the one thing that unites us nationally is, is the language. And, and the fact that, that we do have the, we may not have ABC, NBC, and all of that, but there's this, these other lines of, of, of national communication. And, and I know that at least from national public radio every time anything comes up with immigration or some, bilingual ed. or something, you've got somebody from NCLR commenting on it. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you belong to any civil rights organizations? Mr. Chapa: No, I can't say that I do. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. NCLR is the extent of your non-local elected things? Mr. Chapa: Yeah. Dr. Gutirrez: OK. Do you think it's a good thing for us to have opened the door to LULAC or an NCLR to Puerto Ricans or Cubans and others? Mr. Chapa: Well, I think it's a good thing if it can foster some unity. And, and I do agree with that, that even now or somewhere in the very near future that there has to besome talk of reciprocity. And, and, and I guess here again because I, I tend to get very idealistic. I mean, it may not, may not be grounded in a hard-core reality, but, but as long as these numbers are going to be touted, and I know that, that we Mexicanos are still the vast, vast majority in this country. But, if we can, still if we can pull in from, from these other communities to beef up our numbers, but yet try to work on a, on a common national agenda, yeah, I'd like to see that. No, I don't like to see people for too long get a free ride. I, I think that NCLR probably needs to sit down with the other statewide or national Latino, you know, from, whether it's the Puerto Rican Forum or the Cuban American Forum or whatever it is in, in terms of, and now the Central American groups are, are, you know, what they can do for us. You know, that we, the Mexicano community in terms of, many terms of leadership and, and our agenda, but there's got to be something forthcoming there. And, and I guess under tambien, in, in under that term of La Raza was for all of us. I mean, that, that the, the concept of a Southwest Council of La Raza and a national council was very much a, a Chicano, Mexican American, you know, deal with the Mexicanos. And, and I know that now in the broader picture, the, you know, this issue of trying to encompass more than, more of the Latino groups has become, you know, a trend that. And I hope it's not just because it's trendy, but that, that it can really lead to some meaningful working relationships and cooperation and, and, and some real mutual power creation. Dr. Gutirrez: Do you think that it's time to stop idealism or hard-core reality to get your state representative for your area, to get your school boards, to get your city council to pass or, or impress local option elections to allow residents to vote? Mr. Chapa: Residents? Aliens? Dr. Gutirrez: Yeah. Mr. Chapa: I would like to see that. I would. Dr. Gutirrez: But is it idealistic? Mr. Chapa: Realistic Dr. Gutirrez: Get all that put together and all Mexicanos? Mr. Chapa: Uh huh. I think it, I think it's realistic to make the effort. To, to get it to pass would really take some work and some educating. But I think it's worth the effort. Dr. Gutirrez: Is there anything else that you want to say because I don't have anymore questions? Mr. Chapa: No. No. Dr. Gutirrez: Anything we forgot or left? Mr. Chapa: No. Dr. Gutirrez: Well, thank you again. Probably October 12th is when we will have this presentation with a bunch of others, so jot it down and if you are available we would be glad to have you come up to UT Arlington. Mr. Chapa: Sure. I'd love to. Dr. Gutirrez: Thank you. I'll mail you the, the deed of gift form to sign. Can you give me a mailing address, a correct one? Mr. Chapa: Sure. Sure. Dr. Gutirrez: On, on tape? Mr. Chapa: Yes. You can, probably the best place to, to send it to, just send it to 1116 Conway, Mission, Texas 78572, care of Amancio Chapa. Dr. Gutirrez: You don't live in La Joya? Mr. Chapa: Yes. Dr. Gutirrez: But the mailing is. . . Mr. Chapa: Well, that's my office. Dr. Gutirrez: I see. Mr. Chapa: And because if, if it goes to my house, it gets stuck under a stack of papers and. . . Dr. Gutirrez: Bills. Ok. All right. Thank you.