Oral History Interview with Olga Pena Pena, Olga Interview conducted by José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee José Angel Gutiérrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Jonathan Scott Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 161 pages Published online as part of the Tejano Voices Project. University of Texas at Arlington Libraries
P.O. Box 19497, Arlington, Texas, 76019-0497

Literary rights and title are owned by the University of Texas at Arlington Libraries.

 2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. XXX.

Oral history interviews published online as the Tejano Voices Project, partially funded by a grant received in 2001 from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission's TexTreasures program.

 Library of Congress Subject Headings Library of Congress Name Authority File Jose Angel Gutiérrez Olga Pena Mrs. Gutierrez none English Spanish Pena, Olga Gutiérrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos

The University of Texas at Arlington

Oral History Interview with Olga Pena, 1997 Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 108 Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Location of Interview: San Antonio, Texas Number of Transcript Pages: 161 Cite as: Oral History Interview with Olga Pena, CMAS 108, Special Collections, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries. Interviewee: Olga Pena Interviewer: José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers: Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Date of Interview: April 14, 1997 Location of Interview: San Antonio, Texas Olga Pena Dr. Gutierrez: [April] 15th, I997. Ms. Pena: Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: Fifteenth or fourteenth? Ms. Pena: It is fourteenth. Dr. Gutierrez: Fourteenth. Ms. Pena: Tomorrow is the fifteenth. Dr. Gutierrez: Excuse me. Ms. Pena: Tomorrow is the deadline. Dr. Gutierrez: All aside for taxes. Ms. Pena: That's right. Dr. Gutierrez: And we are at 636 Mission Street in San Antonio... Ms. Pena: Yes. Dr. Gutierrez: ...in the home of Olga Pena. And she has agreed to do this voluntarily and you are waiving any rights to, to your voice and your image and all this because you know this is for educational purposes? Ms. Pena: Right. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. It is a gift to the University of Texas at Arlington. Is that correct? Ms. Pena: Right. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Well, we thank you for taking time to do this. Why don't you tell us first about your biography first? Who your parents were? Who your grandparents were on both sides? Where they came from and that sort of thing? Ms. Pena: OK. Now? Dr. Gutierrez: Yes. Go ahead. Ms. Pena: Oh, OK. Well, I am Olga Pena. Olga Ramos Pena. My maiden name is Ramos, of course, and I was born here in San Antonio, Texas. My parents came from Mexico, from, my father is from Salinas Hidalgo, Nuevo Leon [city and state in Mexico]. My mother is from Monterey,Mexico and they came to the United States when they were very young. They had third grade educations, both of them. That is how far they went in school. Of course, that was in the dark ages. I call it dinosaur time. Anyway, they went only to the third grade, however they are very intelligent and my father educated himself through reading. He read encyclopedias. I think he read every book that there is on encyclopedia and he was a Mason while I was growing up. They became citizens of the United States, I believe in 1937; and I grew up in the West Side on Leona Street right in the heart of San Antonio. I went to Navarro School for elementary school and then I went to Joel's Chandler Harris and then to San Antonio Tech. While growing up we lived in a vecindad (neighborhood) and, of course, we didn't have plumbing facilities inside. So, nowadays people are lucky to have everything. While I was living in the vecindad (neighborhood) a lot of the people were illiterate and I was, ever since I was small, I was always trying to help people. Some of the elderly and things like that and if they needed translation or something, they would come to me. For example, there was a man, a gentleman that had gotten hit by a taxicab and the lawyer, they had hired a lawyer, and then he came to the home and they were right next door, so they called me to go and do the interpretation and I did. That is all I did. I did not suggest anything or recommend anything. All I did was interpret so that the people could understand what was going on and there was also some Blacks, not in the vecindad, but I grew up going to, through dancing school, dancing classes. Folklorico. And I met a, a lady, a young girl that was Black and she was having some problems and I don't know why she asked me; she told me her story about what she was going through. I don't remember much about the issue, but I recommended certain things and I, so, I, I call myself a natural born advocate for people that are in need. And I feel that and when I retired, I wasworking in a program that is geared towards providing education to the drug addicts, to the young children that are missing school and all that. That is a preventive program. To prevent them from using drugs and alcohol and things like that. But going back, I did grow up in a neighborhood in the barrio, so I know all there is to know about suffering and being in the, in the barrio where you cannot get an education. I also grew up being segregated. Now, a lot of you do not know the issue or have never been through it and there, there is still that going on. The only thing is that it is, they try to disguise it now by keeping you, well, they try to, to, to cover it. But I believe that we are smart enough to, to recognize discrimination. When I was going to high school, excuse me. Dr. Gutierrez: I was just going to ask for some years as to when all this is happening; when you were born; or when you went to school and high school. Ms. Pena: OK. I was born in 1925. I am, right now I am seventy one years old and went to Navarro in elementary, junior high, and I went, I graduated in I943. Dr. Gutierrez: So... Ms. Pena: San Antonio, Texas. Dr. Gutierrez: ...so in elementary you were, it was in the Thirties? Ms. Pena: Yes. Dr. Gutierrez: Was that the time when, when Eluterio Escobar and Maria Hernandezwere doing demonstrations against the segregation of Mexican kids? Ms. Pena: I don't remember. Dr. Gutierrez: You don't remember that? Ms. Pena: Because I was real small then. Because I was just starting to Dr. Gutierrez: I see. Ms. Pena: school, which would be six years old, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, let's, let's go back a little further. When did your parents come from Mexico? Do you remember when? Ms. Pena: Uh, no I don't, I don't know. Dr. Gutierrez: Do you remember why? Ms. Pena: Just to get, for a better life, I guess. Dr. Gutierrez: Were they trying to get away from the Mexican Revolution? Ms. Pena: No, no, no. They, they, no, they came with, with their parents, you know. No, they weren't getting away from the Mexican Revolution. My father left because he couldn't, in Salinas Hidalgo it is just a little town. Dr. Gutierrez: What was his name? Ms. Pena: Guadalupe Gutierrez Ramos. Guadalupe G. Ramos. Dr. Gutierrez: And your mother? Ms. Pena: My mother is Francis Navarro Diaz. Dr. Gutierrez: Diaz. OK. And their parents. Were your, did you know your grandparents? Ms. Pena: Oh, my, my grandmother was Maria Diaz and my grandfather was Martin Navarro. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: Oh, my mother is Maria Diaz Navarro. I am sorry. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. And then on your, from your dad's side? Ms. Pena: On my dad's side is Guadalupe Ramos. And my grandfather was Carlos Ramos. Dr. Gutierrez: Do you remember where they were from? Ms. Pena: They were from Salinas Hidalgo. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, everybody was from right there? Ms. Pena: Uh hmmm. Dr. Gutierrez: Uh huh. OK. Ms. Pena: So, and I visited when I was growing up, Mama always used to take me to Salinas and we would go to Montereybecause we had relatives over there. So, that was my vacations. Going to Salinas and Monterey. Dr. Gutierrez: What, what did your dad do and what did your mom do for a living? Ms. Pena: Oh, my dad was, Mom was a housewife all the time. And like I said, she just went to school at, at, to the third grade. My Dad was, he sold, well like the soda waters or you know, soft drinks. And it was a company owned by a Mexicano from Salinas. There were two companies that were owned by Mexican people that came from Mexico, which was Hippo Size and Drug and Bottle and Company. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh yeah? Ms. Pena: They were right in the middle of downtown, right there by Corazon de Maria where the expressway is. Dr. Gutierrez: Yeah. Ms. Pena: Right there. Well, OK. My dad... Dr. Gutierrez: So, those two companies were owned by Mexicans? Ms. Pena: By Mexicans from Salinas, both of them., ironically, yes. And my dad worked for one of the places there and he was a driver. He used to deliver and sell soda waters here to the, and then, El Mercado (Market Square), and all those areas, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Uh huh. OK. Ms. Pena: Little corner stores, remember the family stores that you could go and, and, and charge there? Everybody knew each other and there was pilon [practice of giving a little extra to the customer] in those days and things like that. Dr. Gutierrez: Explain what pilon is. Ms. Pena: Pilonwas granted to you because you bought at the same... You were a customer at the same store; you bought at the same store. And at that time, there were stores practically on every corner, which were owned by a family that lived in the neighborhood; and, of course, you could get, could get some items in one store and others in another. But then, you got used to just shopping at that particular store. Another thing that I am real aware of is, also the foods that we ate inthose days. You had your people come into the streets with carretones (carts), the vegetable vendors, and the selling of their fruits and, and, and all their wares, you know, which was fruits and vegetables. And, also the menudero (seller of menudo). He had a pole, you know, a long pole with two cans like this. And, on Saturdays or Sundays they would come by and that is how you bought your barbacoa (barbeque) and your, if you are aware of Mexican foods, your barbacoa and your menudo. They had buckets and they would dip it. You would come with your bowl and they filled it up and you paid them for that. Your vegetables was the same and of course, to let you know that they were coming, they would, instead of having a bell like the ice cream man now, they would call out, "'Coa, Barbacoa" and "Verdulero"(vegetable vendor), you know, stuff like that. And, you could hear them coming down the street and you would go out there. And it is a very interesting and really, it is really an education in itself knowing where we are at now and all the luxuries that we don't take advantage of All the things that we don't take advantage of. And the things that are available to the young kids. Education is one of them that I am always pushing for because I only went to, I graduated from high school and then I went to Business College. Dr. Gutierrez: Draughn's Business College? Ms. Pena: Draughn's Business College, right. Because I wanted to be a secretary. What a big deal, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, it was a big deal then. That, that was the aspirations. Ms. Pena: At that time, yeah, because, and another thing is... Dr. Gutierrez: Did your father agree with you? Ms. Pena: ...there was the moneys. Pardon? Dr. Gutierrez: Did your father agree that you should go to school? Ms. Pena: Oh yes, yes. Like I say... Dr. Gutierrez: He didn't want you to get married? Ms. Pena: ...he was self educated. No, no. He wanted me to go to, to school. Dr. Gutierrez: How many brothers and sisters do you have? Ms. Pena: Uh, uh, two brothers. Dr. Gutierrez: Who are they? Ms. Pena: Guadalupe. He changed his name from Guadalupe to Wally. Dr. Gutierrez: Uh huh. Ms. Pena: And, and another one that he has passed away already. Hugo Ramos. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: And Guadalupe Ramos. Wally Ramos. Dr. Gutierrez: And what did they grow up to do? Ms. Pena: And they went to school and took this at the same, uh huh. Dr. Gutierrez: What did Wally do later in life? Ms. Pena: Wally. OK. Wally was the, he worked at the sheriff's office. He wasa sheriff's deputy. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, sheriff. OK. Ms. Pena: Uh huh. Dr. Gutierrez: Uh huh. OK. Ms. Pena: And my brother Hugo worked for Douglas Aircraft in Californiabecause he was in the Navy. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh. Ms. Pena: And then he liked California and stayed, went back to California. Dr. Gutierrez: This was World War II? Ms. Pena: Uh hmmm. No. That was, no it was, I don't know which it was.Whether it was Viet Nam or the... Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, he was much younger than you? Ms. Pena: Oh yes. He was younger. I, I am the oldest. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, you are the oldest? I see. I see. Well, OK. Well, then it mayhave been Korea or Viet Nam. Ms. Pena: Korea, yes? Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: And Wally was in the, what was that, Green Berets or...? Dr. Gutierrez: Yes. Ms. Pena: Uh hmmm. Green Berets. He used to, he was a parachutist. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: He was one of the ones that would get there first. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, I see. Ms. Pena: You know, look around and all of that. That is why he became a sheriff deputy because he liked that policing and all of that and he retired from there. Dr. Gutierrez: When you first went to school in Navarro Elementary? Ms. Pena: Uh hmmm. Dr. Gutierrez: Was it segregated? Ms. Pena: Well, there was just a bunch of Mexicans, but the way they practiced segregation, all I knew was Spanish when I went to school. I had a hard time. I had a very bad accent when I spoke English. I didn't know any English when I went there, but I was very lucky that I got one of the teachers that was bi-lingual, so she would teach us in both languages, so I got the taste of that and I knew that it was necessary for our kids. So, when bi-lingualism came in, you know, the law, I was very happy for the children because there is a lot of kids that stilldo not practice English in the home because their parents are illiterate in English. So, but, the segregation part was that we did not know English; we went to school and if they heard us speaking Spanish from the office, you know, the Anglo people were the ones that were running the schools, of course, they would take a ruler and start hitting us. They would tell you to put out your hands and they would hit us with the ruler. And I don't mean just a little tap. I mean, hard. And we didn't want to speak so we would get away from the teachers and everybody to, to talk our lingo, you know. So, it was really ridiculousthe way they practiced it, but that is why I say you can. And I, you don't have to be hit with a ruler. You know when there is segregation because of the, just with body language you can almost pick it up, tone of voice, things like that. Dr. Gutierrez: And in Junior High, what, what experiences did you have? Ms. Pena: Junior High? Dr. Gutierrez: Which one did you go to? Ms. Pena: Harris. At that time, there was a lot of Anglos there and now it is, now we have taken over. The Mexicanos have taken over. Dr. Gutierrez: Did you family move from where they? Ms. Pena: No, no. I was in the middle of, of town, see. So, I could either go to Harris or Lanier Junior, so I went to Tech because it was, it was close. My dad could take me to school and all that on his truck, in his truck because we didn't have a car. We didn't have no automobile. Dr. Gutierrez: But you went to Harris first in Junior High? Ms. Pena: I went to Harris, yeah, in Junior High. Dr. Gutierrez: What was your favorite subject? Ms. Pena: Uh, English. Dr. Gutierrez: English? Ms. Pena: Believe it or not. And you know why? Because I wanted to learnEnglish, so that I wouldn't be segregated. Can you believe that? Dr. Gutierrez: And speak without an accent? Ms. Pena: Yeah. And when, as a matter of fact, I, after I graduated, I went to St. Mary's University just to, to take English and that is what I started with. My, my kids used to make fun of me, you know. "Mom, you don't pronounce it that way." Well, not flan, but they would try to correct me when I spoke, you know. And I, I still can't speak. I mean, my vocabulary is kind of limited and I do have a, a, not a BA but an Associate’s Degree from well, St. Mary's and of course, I got it from San Antonio College, but I did all my English in, in, at St. Mary'sUniversity. And then I went to, to SAC [San Antonio College, a junior college] and, of course, I took psychology there and that was what my work was, which I use the psychology all. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, let's go back to high school. What, what clubs did you belong to? Ms. Pena: The Spanish Club and I was, I was a leader. Dr. Gutierrez: How did that happen? Ms. Pena: Because of my dancing and being in the Spanish Club and I was, I don't know. I spoke to everybody. I was very friendly. Everybody knew me at school and any time there was any assemblies, I always danced. Dr. Gutierrez: When did you start dancing? Ms. Pena: I started dancing at the age of eight. Dr. Gutierrez: Ohhh, second grade then. Ms. Pena: Yeah. I could Dr. Gutierrez: Who taught you? Ms. Pena: First it was a lady, Lydia Magon. And then, I went with the San Antonio, the city recreation department and it was Berta Almaguer. Dr. Gutierrez: What kind of dancing? Ms. Pena: Mexican dancing. Dr. Gutierrez: Folklorico? Ms. Pena: Folklorico. I started with the, me comensaron con el jarbe tapatio (I was started with the typical dance, jarabe), and that is the hardest. Chapaneca, jarabe tapatio ( two different dance forms), Espuelas (another dance form), the whole bit. You name it, I mean, I don't know, I know about a, over a hundred dances. Dr. Gutierrez: So, you were beautiful and had great legs? Ms. Pena: I, I hope so. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, when you were dancing all this time, you, you, and you are still very beautiful so, no wonder you were very popular. But, but youmust have figured something out. I mean, being popular and being beautiful is something that kind of comes naturally. Being political is another and that is by choice. Ms. Pena: Well... Dr. Gutierrez: So, you got to be political? Ms. Pena: ...yes. Well, I got to be political because, because as I said, I wanted to help. I wanted to help. Dr. Gutierrez: When did you first realize that? Ms. Pena: When I was about fourteen. Dr. Gutierrez: How did that happen? Ms. Pena: Like I said, because the people wanted to, needed my assistance and stuff like that. And then I started learning that, well, no, I guess political. Yeah. Well. Because. OK. We were renting. We didn't own our home and the person that owned the houses was Bertetti. John Bertetti. And he worked for the, for the post office, postal services and he was very close to... What was his name? The post master here in San Antonio. I don't remember his name. But anyway, he was very close to him. And whenever he would come to collect the rent, he would stop and talk and, and, and he was always talking about being a friend to this person and to the post master general and he was very political. So, I started kind of picking up. Dr. Gutierrez: So, he would be talking to you or talking to your father or to, to your mother? Ms. Pena: To my mother, Although Mama wasn't educated, but she always took an interest. As a matter of fact, my Father and Mother, I told you my Father was a Mason. OK. And then, and we belonged to all the clubs. And what I mean is social clubs. The, the, he didn't belong to the LULACs, but he belonged to the... What was it? Dr. Gutierrez: Hijos de America(an organization, Sons of America)? Ms. Pena: Well, when I danced, there was, I used to see that, see a lot of the clubs that, like the fraternities, get the care, you know, that have the insurances and all that. Dr. Gutierrez: Ahh, the mutualistas (mutual benefit societies). Ms. Pena: Mutualistas. Dr. Gutierrez: Miguel Hidalgo[name of a Mexican hero that many mutual benefit societies are named after]. Ms. Pena: All of that. So, I was always into, in that environment. So, something was clicking there already, you know. Because I went to the organizational because I did what you call spot dancing. Dr. Gutierrez: What is that? Ms. Pena: That means that I didn't work in a place, a cantina (bar) or nothing like that, you know. I worked whenever there was conventions and they wanted entertainment and things like that. Dr. Gutierrez: I see. Ms. Pena: I went, as a matter of fact, we would go to Laredo every Washington's Birthday and stuff like that when they celebrate there, to the school there, to dance at the school. Dr. Gutierrez: Now, this is a school function project or you, you are doing this for some other club? Ms. Pena: No, no. When we went to the, to the Laredo, it was with a group, the de aqui (from here) and it would, they would hold their, their meetings or their fiesta at, at the school there in Laredo. Dr. Gutierrez: But, did your dad and your mom talk politics? Ms. Pena: My mom and my, no. My, my dad would talk about, you know, in the Masons they... I think they talk about the stars and astrology and he would, he would, or astronomy. And he would always point out to us about the moon and the stars and tell us about the planets and the whole bit. So, I got a lot of stuff here and there and then dad was, he always had people at the house. Fiestas (Parties). He was a leader.I mean, he would bring people to the house. And at Christmas, Mama was the best cook there is and, of course, she made her tamales. And I, I haven't forgotten any of those wonderful foods that we, you know. Tamales and I think our youngsters do not know or and our Anglos are taking advantage of our foods and, and selling them because we, we did not teach our kids how to, to keep up the, the culture, the different foods, that they recognize all those things. Anyway, my dad was in clubs like the social clubs, like I was saying. And he was, we would go to the dances and, of course, we would, to dance, to go dancing for recreation. That was our recreation. And they would take me all the time because I was young. And I, and then, I became a member of some of the social clubs myself And I was popular because everybody knew me in that clubs because I belonged to them. And I got into it because of my dancing. I danced for the, like I said, the Spot Show, so I got a feel. OK. During World War, World War II, I was very young. I was still in high school. And they would provide at the, at the military bases, they had, of course, a lot of shows for the military, and I would go to those places like Ft. Sam Houston and all of that. So, I got a, a taste of that, you know, going to those things. And I, I met a lot of the other people that were coming and, and entertaining. I met some of the, the, the people that were in show business in Mexico that came to Laredo when we went to the Laredo shows. I, let me see what else. OK. My Daddy belonged to the Monte Carlo and, of course they, they chose their queen and all of that, just like the Feria de las Flores (Battle of Flower [San Antonio festival]). That kind of stuff. Dr. Gutierrez: Is that an organization like the Monte Carlo? Ms. Pena: Organization. Monte Carlo. They had the debutantes. You know, they would come up as the debutantes and stuff like that. Dr. Gutierrez: Were you involved? Ms. Pena: No. My daughter, one of my daughters went through the Monte Carlo as a debutante. Dr. Gutierrez: Later on? Ms. Pena: When, yeah, later on. But at the time, I didn't. But I went to the dances and I knew a lot of people there. Dr. Gutierrez: In high school, did you belong to other clubs? Other than the Spanish Club? Ms. Pena: No. No. Dr. Gutierrez: Did you get elected to office or anything? Ms. Pena: No. No. Nothing like that, no. I was too busy dancing and, and, and, and having friends. I still see people. As a matter of fact, Saturday, I saw two girls that I went to school with and right away, they come and... Dr. Gutierrez: What school? Ms. Pena: ....whenever I go out, I don't care where I am at, I always see somebody that knows me. And they will come up to me and hey, Olga. Either through my growing up, through my dancing, through politics, and those kinds of things. But I was always there. Andaba de metiche. (I was always getting involved.) And I hate to be cooped up in the house. Dr. Gutierrez: Yeah. Did you work; other than in the house? Ms. Pena: No. What my work was, later on when I became a little bit older, when I was going to Draughn's [Business school], after high school and that, I worked. That was my work. My dancing. They would pay me later because I came in, became professional. Of course, nothing. In those days, they would pay me like five dollars a dance, which was a lot. And that money, because my dad and my mom were real poor, you know. And selling soda waters in those days, well, the ah, I think the bottle of Root Beer and stuff like that was about five cents or something like that a bottle. And we never went on welfare. Never!My dad would say that he was able to provide pobremente (poorly), but he had a lot of pride. Dr. Gutierrez: So, when you went to secretarial school, were you still living at home? Ms. Pena: Oh yes. Uh huh. Yeah. And after that I, I worked with a manufacturing company. Perez Manufacturing Company who had, who made dresses, exclusive dresses which went to; of course you didn't have your, your outlets, you know, your factory outlets. You just bought in the store and they provided to the Sakowits and Joskeys here in San Antonio was Joske's and, and then Sakowits and Foley's in Houston and stuff like that. Dr. Gutierrez: But it wasn't a Perez label? It was with Sakowits or Foley's or something? Ms. Pena: No, it was under the Perez label. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh really? Ms. Pena: Yeah. But it was exclusive and they would put their, their advertisement with that and, and it was just those stores that you could just get those dresses or that merchandise at that particular store. That is the way they used to sell. Dr. Gutierrez: What happened to that business? Ms. Pena: Oh, they went down. They closed up. I worked there for about two years and after that I, I got married. Dr. Gutierrez: Whom did you marry? Ms. Pena: Albert Pena. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you meet him and why did you marry him? Ms. Pena: I, I, he was... OK, I was working at Perez and that was right across from the San Antonio Express. The factory was right there and I was walking to lunch, to go get my lunch at lunch time and I saw a friend of mine coming out of one of the buildings there and he says, "Olga, I am so happy to see you," and this and that. He told me he was marrying this girl and that I went to school went and he says, "I wantyou to stand at my wedding." And so, I said, "Sure. I will be very happy to." And he says, "Well, come on upstairs. I want you to meet someone." And it was Albert. Dr. Gutierrez: That was who you.... Ms. Pena: He wanted me to stand with him. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: And I said, "Well, I have a boyfriend, if I can stand with him." And he says, "No, I want you to stand with him. Would you? Do you mind?" I said, "No, that is OK." So, I stood with Albert and, and I just stood with him at the wedding. There was nothing, you know. I wasn't interested in him or anything like that. Dr. Gutierrez: What changed your mind? Ms. Pena: He was persistent. Dr. Gutierrez: Terco(Determined). Ms. Pena: Terco. Yes. So, I finally ended up marrying him. Dr. Gutierrez: How long did you all have a courtship? Ms. Pena: About six months. Dr. Gutierrez: And did he do the right thing? Did he come ask for your hand and promise everything? Ms. Pena: He was, yes, well, yeah he did. Dr. Gutierrez: What did your dad think of that? Ms. Pena: He said whatever I wanted. Dr. Gutierrez: Was Albert a lawyer already by then or just starting? Ms. Pena: Oh no. No. He had come back from the war, World War II and he was a Veteran. He had very, very recently gotten out of the service. He was a, in the Navy and he has just gotten out of the service and he was at St. Mary's. He was going to St. Mary's. Dr. Gutierrez: What year is this? Ms. Pena: Uh, that was 47, 47. Early 47. That was around about this time of the year. No, earlier. About February of 47. Dr. Gutierrez: Is this when Henry B. Gonzalez is trying to integrate the theaters and these things that he was doing in the later Forties? Do you remember? Ms. Pena: I don't remember that. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: I don't remember any of that. I remember Henry when he was in city council. Dr. Gutierrez: No problem. Ms. Pena: From there on, you know.... Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: And, of course, that was when I married Albert and, and he was going to St. Mary's. And, and at that time there was discrimination at St. Mary's. Dr. Gutierrez: How was it? Ms. Pena: Another person that was going there, Julio Reyna, he says, "Hey," you know.... When they discovered discrimination and this and that. Albert, Albert didn't finish there. We had to move to Houston. That, that was after I married him, of course, and all. But he was going to, to law school there at St. Mary's and he dropped out because of the discrimination. Or something happened that he got out. Dr. Gutierrez: You don't know what it was? Ms. Pena: No. He is real smart, so I don't know that that was whether grades was the, the reason or what. I don't remember that one. Anyway, he got out and he was gonna quit because his father was going... His father was a lawyer already. Albert's father. And Albert said that, Albert, of course, I married him in September of 47 and he got out from school, and he wasn't going to go back. And his father was going to open up a pawn shop right there where that big courthouse is in the center of San Antonio by Main Plaza where the San Fernando Cathedral is. That was, my father-in-law had bought that building and he was practicing law there. And he wanted to put up a, place him in apawn shop there. And he says that you will make a lot of money and stuff like that and Albert says, "Well, honey," you know, "Dad says that he can put us up and he can help me start a business and it is a very good business." And I said, "No. Albert. You wanted law. Don't you want to be a lawyer?" And he, he didn't want to pursue it. And I said, "Well, you could go someplace else." And I kept insisting that y terca (and determined. And I made him go to, to law school. Well, I didn't make him, but I mean, I convinced him, let's say. I convinced him to go to law school. Dr. Gutierrez: And that is when you all moved to Houston? Ms. Pena: Yeah. We moved to Houston. Dr. Gutierrez: And he went to University of Houston or, or Texas Southern? Ms. Pena: No, he went to the Texas Southern, but then he took some courses also. I think just for one, one or two at, at the Houston, at the law school there. Dr. Gutierrez: Tell me a little bit about Albert's parents and his father and where did they come from and mother? Ms. Pena: OK. His father came from Laredo. He is a Armendariz. As a matter of fact, I think he was a, kin to the, the Armendaris, the movie star and primos hermanos (first cousins). And he has got the fachas de Pedro Armendaris (and he has the looks of Pedro Armendariz). And he moved to San Antonio when he was young also. And he used to deliver for a pharmacy, deliver the medications for it on a bicycle and he came up the hard way, too. There were no grants, no nothing. This is why I said earlier in the interview that kids do not take advantage of what is available in, for the education. And he used to sponsor dances at La Gloria, little, little places where you could get certain amount of people and you could make money. He would hire a band and he and he would put on some dances, you know. Sponsor the dances. And he made money doing that to go to school, to pay forlaw school. And during the day he, he would work for the pharmacy trying to deliver, for drugstores delivering medication. And then, he would go to school at night. And I think he was the first one, some of the first graduates with Weber School of Law here in San Antonio. I think that was the only law school at the time and, of course, I learned that because he used to tell me. Very, very interesting man. Also, he belonged to LULAC [League of United Latin American Citizens]. My father-in-law. And, of course, we were struggling. Albert going to school and then, I had Bill, my son, my first born, who was Bill Pena and we were... And he was a baby when we moved out to Houston. And there was a lot of discrimination in Houston. Worse. They didn't even have Spanish, Mexican food. We couldn't find Mexican food. No Spanish music. Casi nada. (Almost nothing.), y yo estaba acostumbrada ( and I was accustomed to) that I would turn my radio on to the Mexican music, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Sure. Ms. Pena: I still, if you get in my car and I turn my car on, I have got Mexican music. Dr. Gutierrez: What station? Ms. Pena: La Tejana(The Tejano). Dr. Gutierrez: So, you listen to Tejano music not Mexican music? Ms. Pena: No, no, no. This is not the Tejano. No, I have, as a matter of fact, we have people that have a radio station Albert, on Albert's side and that is all Tejano. Dr. Gutierrez: Los Davila?(The Davila's?) Ms. Pena: And I like it, but... Dr. Gutierrez: Los Davila. Ms. Pena: Davila. Dr. Gutierrez: KEDA. Ms. Pena: Uh huh. La KEDA. K-E-D-A. And I like it, but I, I like the others because I like to hear the variety, you know of the Mexican. Maybe because of my background, because of my dancing and the songs that I came up with and all of that. Because I had an uncle on my father's side that was a baritone and he, he had voice education and, and he used to sing in the op, in operas, Mexican operas. He had a teacher here, right around here in this, in this barrio. Bononcini. Madame Bononcini, and she used to teach dance and opera. And he was an opera singer. So, I grew up with that kind of music and, and my dad can sing real well, too, or he could. Not anymore. He could sing and they both would sing and things like that. My dad never went professional, but my uncle did. Dr. Gutierrez: All right, so Albert and you had a baby boy, Bill? Ms. Pena: Bill. Dr. Gutierrez: And by that time he has become a lawyer, no? Because he, he finishes in, in Houston and comes back here? Why did, why did you all decide to come back here? Ms. Pena: OK. When we came back, well, they offered Albert a lot of positions over there because he had some friends there. Dr. Gutierrez: In Houston? Ms. Pena: In Houston. No, in Pasadena. In Pasadena or but they were going to practice law in Houston, but we were living in Pasadena because it was too high in, in Houston, for the rents and all that. We couldn't make it with a baby. And so, we moved to Pasadena because he met this man who was a mayor then in, in Pasadena and he got us into the, the housing there and we lived in the housing projects there. We were the only Mexicans there and, as a matter of fact, they told Sam that, the mayor, they told him that they didn't want any Mexicans there. And Sam got us in anyway. And then, when, when we left, they cried because we were leaving. We made such good friends witheverybody. Everybody loved us. And, and I don't know what they think about the word Mexican. People are so, they don't take the time to find out who we are and that there is good people. I mean, they think, you know, they just, I don't know. They just think that we are nothing and just like the Blacks, you know. They just categorize and that is it. Everybody is bad. Everybody is this. Everybody is a bandido (bandit) and caballo y con pistola, (on a horse and with a pistol), and we are not. Am I making it too long? Dr. Gutierrez: No. No, no, no. Take your time. We got plenty of tape. I even brought an extra one there. Mira, nuevecito. (Look, brand new.) Ms. Pena: Oh, my God. You can cut it. You can edit it. Anyway, well, I had Bill and we lived in Pasadena and they wanted to have Albert stay there. But when we left he said that we are going to come back because we are going to, I am going to help my people. And it was ironic, maybe that is why I married him. Because we had the same thoughts. Because remember I said earlier that I helped people in the neighborhood and there was other things that I did. Whenever I got into trouble at school, my mother wouldn't go and, and, and advocate for me. I had to fight my own, fight my own way. When my brothers got into trouble and they wanted Mom to come, it was Olga. When my cousins got in trouble and they would call for their Mother, my cousins would send me. Tell Olga to go. Hablenle a la prima (Call the cousin), and then call me. Hey, I still get calls from friends. I still get calls from family. And what do I do in this case and, and that? I have always done that. I don't know. I don't know why, but anyway I have always done that. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: And so, he says that I am going to help my people so we are going to come back. I said great. But by the time he got through at, at law school, which wasn't long because he graduated, I think, in 51 or 52, and here we left, I think it was about a year or two that we stayed there. And they wanted him to stay out there. Sam and, and another, some other people that practiced in law there and he said, "Well, what do you say?" And I said, "No. Let's stick with the issue. You said, with our plan. You said you were going to go back and help the people, so we are going to go back and help the people. I don't want to stay here." And so, again, I convinced him to come over here and so we moved to San Antonio and he started practicing law with his dad. Dr. Gutierrez: Where did you live? Ms. Pena: On Palmetto. That is a duplex on Palmetto. It is down Denver Heights, out here on the South side. Dr. Gutierrez: So, he started practicing law with his dad? Ms. Pena: With his Dad, yeah. So, it was, and his brother. So, it was Pena, Pena, and Pena. Dr. Gutierrez: Who was the brother? Ms. Pena: Richard Pena. Dr. Gutierrez: Richard Pena? Ms. Pena: Uh hmmm. Dr. Gutierrez: Another lawyer? Ms. Pena: Another lawyer. Dr. Gutierrez: Now, is Albert the youngest of the group or the middle or the oldest? Ms. Pena: Albert is the oldest. Dr. Gutierrez: The oldest. Ms. Pena: Albert is the oldest, yeah. I went to school with his brothers, with the young brothers, with Richard and, and Tony. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, oh OK. I see. Ms. Pena: Albert was the older one. Dr. Gutierrez: And are they still around? Are they still alive and working? Ms. Pena: Well, yeah. Well, Tony is in California and he has two degrees. He is, he worked with Kelly Field because he was, he got a, I believe, an engineer degree and then he got a law degree in California. Dr. Gutierrez: I see. OK. Ms. Pena: So, I think he is retired from the, from the company where he was working at and, and he is a lawyer now. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: In his retirement years. And Richard, of course, left his law practice. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Well, tell us the names of the children you had so we can get that out of the way. Ms. Pena: OK. I have William Albert Pena and... Dr. Gutierrez: That was the first one? Ms. Pena: Yeah, that was my first one. And then Sandra Francis Pena and that is a girl. I had girls from there on. And then Mary Magdalena Pena. And then Olga, another Olga. And I didn't want to name her Olga because that wouldn't be, you know, because that is confusing. And, well, it isn't, but I mean, there is other names. And I have a, a granddaughter Olga, so that is why, you know, I need to, you know, because I have seen families where all of them are the same names, you know. You have to know, start numbering them. And so, when I found out Albert had already named her Olga and so, she got stuck with the name Olga. And then there is Roxy, Roxanne. And my son. Dr. Gutierrez: So, it is seven kids? Ms. Pena: No. Dr. Gutierrez: Five, six? Ms. Pena: Six. Six kids. Dr. Gutierrez: Six of them. Bill is the only boy. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, was Albert married before? Ms. Pena: Yes. Dr. Gutierrez: Ahh. OK. Ms. Pena: Albert had been married during the war. Dr. Gutierrez: That's the other Albert... Ms. Pena: Albert the Third. Dr. Gutierrez: ...the Third. Ms. Pena: Albert III. Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: Albert III. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. OK. Well, tell me about how you helped these people and how you, you helped your people. Ms. Pena: All right. He got, we went, we were on Palmetto and then we moved to Hermine and on Hermine we... Dr. Gutierrez: That is on the South side still? Ms. Pena: No, no. That is the North side. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, Hermine is on the North side? Ms. Pena: Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: Off of West Avenue. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: Now the expressway cuts right through that where we had, where we had moved. And we started hanging around with all the different people. And, and, of course, it was in the firemen and things like that and then they were in the unions, so really the unions more and, the working class trying to help the working class and, and that is when we said we were going to help our people. So, we started going to precinct conventions. We would go vote. We would see who was running, who was a better person and things like that. So, we really started in politics together. You know, Albert and myself. But like, my background was what I said and Albert's was with his father and all of that type of good stuff. And all the groups, I was aware of the LULACs and all that because of my father's being in clubs too and wewould go to LULAC dances and you know, the Monte Carlo, and the whatever. And then I became.... So, that is how I got into that; knowing about the different things. Of course, by that, at that time, the G. I. Forum wasn't around. The American G. I. Forum. That came later. But anyway, we started going to the, to the precinct conventions and started meeting all of the people that were involved in politics. We got to go to the convention, both of us, and we, we liked what we saw, both of us. I loved it. I still do. I still do. It is here. And then we went to the conventions and we got real, I got real interested in it. So, I started getting into clubs. I went, I got into the, into the Democratic Women. The first Mexican got into the Democratic Women. Dr. Gutierrez: That was you? Ms. Pena: Eran puras bolillas.(They were all white women.) Dr. Gutierrez: That was you? Ms. Pena: Yeah. And it was, they were holding it across from the Alamo, right across from the Alamo in Houston. There was a little restaurant there and I think it was the second meeting that the Democratic Women had. I wasn't a, a, a charter member, but I was there within the early stages and I was the first Mexicana that got into there. And then others from the unions became, that were wives to union guys, started coming in, but very few, you know. Very few. Right at the end, in 73, when the Democratic party, Democratic Women, kind of started getting out was because there was a kind of a.... I will get to that. Mary Ester Bernal was the president, but we had a clash and I think that is what broke it up. But, at that time, I got, I was the first Mexican to get into there. I was Treasurer and this and that. I served in many offices there, but I didn't want to become president. I never strived for it or anything. I just wanted to be loose. I didn't want to be committed by the bolillas (white women) to follow a certaincandidate. And I was in the minority, so I didn't want to get involved like that. I learned all those tricks and knowing the, the issues and things like that. I began to learn the issues and so I got very interested in it and I said, "My God, this is a new world. This is how we help the Mexicano. This is how we do things." And I started teaching myself because I was interested in it. And whenever I was interested in something I just would find out about it. I would get interested and just research it, go to the person that could tell me or when to do this and that and so I educated myself in that manner, as far as politics. And of course, Albert was doing a different thing in his own. So, he did something and I did something else. But, then in the combination, it was, it became very effective. Dr. Gutierrez: What kind of issues did you get involved with? Ms. Pena: Ohh, with a lot of issues. Some of them were, OK, the issues that I got involved with was... Let me see, which was it? Some of them was, well, some of them were mostly when Albert would, well the discrimination was a one that I was exposed... Dr. Gutierrez: Well, this was in the Forties and there was a lot of discrimination and segregation cases in schools. Ms. Pena: ...to discrimination and in, in... Dr. Gutierrez: ....and in the area. Ms. Pena: Yeah. Yeah. In the area. And I got involved when Albert would go to the discrimination, to, to, to find out about the discrimination cases after he became a lawyer. He did it for the G. I. Forum and LULAC. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh. Ms. Pena: Free. Dr. Gutierrez: They, they would call him or, or 7 Ms. Pena: Yeah. He, he, yeah, he volunteered. And they would go to, because,of course, people would go to the LULACs saying, "Hey, there is discrimination." Dr. Gutierrez: Did you go with him... Ms. Pena: Oh yes. Dr. Gutierrez: ...on these trips? Ms. Pena: Oh yes. And I, I would start asking the kids about things. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, tell me about all those trips that you made. Ms. Pena: OK. Dr. Gutierrez: Or what, places, places that you went to. Ms. Pena: OK. Uh, well, we went to Hondo. Dr. Gutierrez: Tell me about that one. Ms. Pena: OK. At, at Hondo there was two schools in the first grades or the elementary grades and they were segregated. The Mexicans went to one school and the Anglos went to another. OK? And the railroad tracks that run in Hondo; you can see them from the highway... Dr. Gutierrez: Correct. Ms. Pena: ... separated them. And, we went to the, the main school, which was the Anglo school just to, to find out what was going on and they had beautiful playgrounds, cement, arena (sand), and all that. Real well kept and everything. The rooms were nice. The school class, the classrooms, they were nice and everything with all the conveniences and everything. Dr. Gutierrez: They let you in to look at them? Ms. Pena: Oh yeah. We went in. Dr. Gutierrez: You weren't afraid? Ms. Pena: Pardon. Dr. Gutierrez: You weren't afraid? Ms. Pena: I have never been afraid. I am still not afraid. And so, you have to not be afraid. What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of really? You know, tiene uno la misma voz. (one has the same voice.) And you can talk poor, bad, indifferent, como te salgan las palabras, (however the words come out,) but you say it; whatever you have on your mind andthat is the only way to get ahead. If you are intimidated, forget it. You are never going to get ahead. And I don't care who it is. Whether you come from the barrio, whether you come from the courts, or you come from wherever. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, in the Forties, you know, in the early Fifties, a lot of the police beat up on Mexicans. Ms. Pena: Oh yes. We went through a lot of that, too. Dr. Gutierrez: You still weren't afraid? Ms. Pena: No. Dr. Gutierrez: Albert wasn't afraid? Ms. Pena: Por que?(Why?) No, he got put in jail. Dr. Gutierrez: Where? In Hondo? Ms. Pena: No. Aqui. Aqui(No. Here. Here.) Uh huh. Pero las escuelas no, no nos echaban la ley. (But in the schools, no, no they wouldn't call the law.) No, no, you know. Not, not at that point, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, how did you argue with, with the school board or the principals on these different things? Ms. Pena: Well, I, I did more of the asking the questions and then on the way back, we discussed things, you know, about what was going on and things like that. About oh, did you notice the little boy? I went to that little boy and I talked to this one, you know, this little girl and things like that and to the parents, you know. Whenever I was available for the parents because that, I, he didn't take me to all of those things, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: Yeah. Ms. Pena: I had my kids and, and my mom and dad, if it hadn't been for them, I wouldn't have been able to do the things I did because I didn't have a baby-sitter. We didn't have money. He were just starting. As a matter of fact, he neglected a lot of his law practice because he did alot of that advocacy, giving free time to investigations and things like that. Even got involved with your thing in Crystal City. Dr. Gutierrez: That is true. But that is later. Ms. Pena: Yeah, that was later. Dr. Gutierrez: We are still in the Forties, early Fifties here. Ms. Pena: Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: What was the best thing one you remember or the one that made you feel the best? Ms. Pena: OK. The, the, well, the segregations were good. OK? I mean, I mean, that, that is important. This is our kids that we are fighting for and the desegregation is there. The segregation is there. So well, we had problems. We had a little Chevrolet and we had a blowout and it had been raining and we got stuck in the mud. And at that time, we could still get a ride, you know, because people weren't afraid and they stopped and, and we took the tire and we went to a filling station in Hondo. It was when we went to Hondo. We came back and the person at the garage, they were Anglo. And they were very nice, so there were nice people and, of course, there were the bigots too. And they came and they gave us a ride in the truck, the, the, and then they, they fixed the flat and we came home. The one in Mathis is the one that really irked me. I, I was very angry and so was Albert, but he was talking to the teacher and he and I was asking things to the, questions to the child. Hey, because he was real, that was very noticeable. He was bigger than the little, you know, the others were all about the same size and this little kid was overgrown. I said he is either overgrown or he is older. And he had been kept there for a couple of, a couple of, a couple of years and only, and it wasn't because he wasn't learning. It was because that lady was Anglo and she was keeping him and, and, mind you, the, the school was allowing this. So, this was, was really, I mean, segregation, major segregation. So thathe could interpret, do the interpretations for her and he was, he would interpret whatever there was to, to interpret. He just, you know, if a kid would ask, "Well, what does that mean?" The little boy would tell them. Dr. Gutierrez: He was like a Teacher Aide. Ms. Pena: Yeah. He was a teacher. He was doing the teaching. He was being the, so he was doing the, the, the, all the teaching for the teacher in Spanish. He was a bi-lingual teacher really, more so than the teacher, and I feel that when you run into a thing like that, I mean, get the qualified teacher. Especially, well, at that time, I don't think the bilingualism was in, but if you are going to teach Spanish speaking children, you have to know something about it or you are not going to be able to, to explain it to them and it is not our fault. Like, I was one of those. Dr. Gutierrez: So, what happened in Mathis? Ms. Pena: So, then that little boy was that old and, and that was used in the, in the case and that was wrong and I believe that Albert based it on the Delgado decision of discrimination, which Gus Garcia had, had fought. Gus Garcia and Carlos Cardena. Dr. Gutierrez: Did you know them too? Ms. Pena: Oh yes. Both of them. Carlos, Carlos was a brain and, and, and Gus Garcia was the, the voice. He was and he was never afraid and things like that too, too. Oh, I know Gus real, I knew Gus very well. Very well. Both of them. I knew a lot of real good people that have paved the way. I knew Alonzo Perales also, who was also, another first lawyer. Dr. Gutierrez: He founded LULAC. Ms. Pena: Founder of LULAC and there is a book that he wrote. I have it somewhere. I still have it at my old house. I have a lot of materials there that I saved of things like that. I have newspaper articles andthings like that. I need to take my time and now that I am retired, but that is what I wanted to do, but I, I just can't because I have...si Dios quiere... (God willing...) Dr. Gutierrez: Well, in another month or so. Ms. Pena: Well, anyway the discrimination was there and, and this happened and Albert won that case. In Mathis we won, "we", the Hondo and then there was another one. I, I didn't go to that one. I went to those two. And when Albert was in, was, became a public official, I did all the advocacy. if they were calling about having problems Dr. Gutierrez: What, what did he run for? Ms. Pena: What? He ran for, when he ran for County Commissioner he won. Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, that was the first race that he ran? Ms. Pena: No, the first one was the, he ran for the legislature against Ray T. Felixson. Dr. Gutierrez: Tell me about that. Ms. Pena: OK. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you all decide that he would do that and how did you help him? Ms. Pena: Oh, I did all the, no, at that point I did not do all of it, but I did a lot of, I.... OK. I didn't run a headquarters. I didn't know anything about headquarters and I don't think he knew either. So, like I said, we learned together. But, what I did, even my dad also was helping there. Albert ran independently because, of course, also there wasn't a ticket for the legislature. It was just local. Mexicans had offices in the city, like in the city, at city hall and all that, but there were no legislators as state offices held by Mexicanos. Dr. Gutierrez: That was just the very beginning, no? Because Henry B. [Gonzalez] was like the only one. Ms. Pena: What? No, I, I... Dr. Gutierrez: At the beginning. Ms. Pena: Henry was in that, yeah, but he was a city councilman. Dr. Gutierrez: Right. Ms. Pena: OK. Dr. Gutierrez: And there was nobody on the school board. Ms. Pena: No, not on the school board. Dr. Gutierrez: And there was nobody in the county. Ms. Pena: Nobody in the county. Nobody in the state. None of those offices. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. OK. Ms. Pena: So, it was really at the, the push, you know. Dr. Gutierrez: And at that time the Democratic party was just two factions, you know, the liberals and the conservatives. And the conservatives always were winning all the time. Ms. Pena: Yeah, that is why it was, I call it the one party state. Dr. Gutierrez: Right. Well, it was. Ms. Pena: The two parties, the one party state, because the, the, the conservatives did all the, they want, because they would vote in the primaries as Democrats. So, they got to choose the Democrats, which they would choose a conservative and then they went to the, to the general election and then they, of course, then that was divided by Republican and, and Democrat. And they would vote Republican. But if the other one got elected, it was a conservative, so I mean it was a, they controlled. They were the controlling force and we had bigots all over the place. I mean, at, at, in New Braunfels they segregated Henry Gonzalez there. They wouldn't let him in and you can imagine all the squealing and the, the noises that he made because he is a, he is a fighter. He is a fighter. And so, we learned together and we were going to the.... And that is why I am, I am always interested and I am always asking the youngsters if they know about precinct conventions. That is where the rules, that's where the impact, that's where you, that's when you can really start building the fires to have your, yourrepresentatives do things that you want to. Let them know that you are aware of issues and things like that. That is so important. So, I am an issues person. I think that that is a most important thing in the world because if you don't deal with the issues, you are not getting any place. You can go vote, but you vote and nobody knows that you voted or who voted or what, you know. They know because of the, when they start looking at the, at the voters how many voted that were certain named so and so, or by the precincts and things like that. Dr. Gutierrez: Did you have arguments this side of the Democratic Women's organization or were they all liberals? Ms. Pena: No. No. Because we, we would just talk about, we would talk about issues and things like that, but because there was a lot of labor representation in the Democratic party and that we were mostly liberals. Because it was, there was the independent liberal, the, the unions, and, and the Mexicanas that started coming in with the labors and there was with the pack leaders, join the union and then the different, different types. Dr. Gutierrez: How about the Blacks? Ms. Pena: Oh, the blacks. There wasn't. Dr. Gutierrez: None, you said, except G. J. Sutton. Ms. Pena: No, there weren't, they weren't. There were no, no Blacks. Dr. Gutierrez: Not at that time. Ms. Pena: There were no Blacks in the Democratic Women at, at that time. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. OK. Ms. Pena: Later on, Ruth Jones, who is, who is now Ruth, oh my God, the name escapes me. She is in the Legislature right now. She was city council. Oh my God. I am embarrassed. I can't remember. Ruth Jones. I know her as Ruth Jones, but she is McClendon now. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Yeah. Yeah. Ms. Pena: OK. Ruth Jones McClendon. OK. She was the, the, the first Negro that got into, no... Her and, and Mrs. Howard. There was a Mrs. Howard, but she was a liberal, of course, liberal because she was fighting for, for her group, you know, her, the Blacks. So, those are the two that I remember very well. Mrs. Howard, she was an older lady and she really did a lot of, of fighting when it came to the Blacks, but there was not so many issues in there as far as that was concerned. It was later on when, when there was more Mexicanas and they always wanted to control the, the chairmanship. They wanted to keep hold of the chairmanship. We could belong but we couldn't, but we gave them a good fight with Mary Ester Bernal. She ran and, and we all grouped out and Minnie, Matt Garcia's wife, Minnie Garcia, and Ana Esparza, myself, a lot of us. And, of course, our, they were, I would confront anybody about if I felt that wasn't right. At one of the meetings that we had one time in, in, let's see, in McAllen, I think. It was, Joe Bernal was, I was already divorced, and Joe Bernal was talking. I don't know what the issue was, but I, I got up and I talked and I said, "No, Joe." And this and that because I was on, I had a different view of what he was talking about. I don't even remember what the issue was. The only point I am trying to make is that if I didn't agree, I made it known that I did not. Dr. Gutierrez: You just spoke up. Ms. Pena: And that is the way I was in the Democratic Women. So we, we won the, from the Anglos at the Democratic Women. That was... Dr. Gutierrez: It sounds like there was no Mexicanas and ya'll got together and decided you were going to take over? Ms. Pena: That we wanted to... Yeah, we needed to get up there, you know. Like I said, I had served as secretary and this and that. And then, I didn't want to become.... Like I said, because once we went and, and did the, the, decided who we were going for.... Well, I wasn't going,in the primaries, I did not want to be hooked to, to a candidate that they decided on because they were the, the, they had the majority. Because I, like I said, there was not that many Mexicanas and then they started coming in and coming in. Then with the, with the people that were in office like Matt Garcia and Joe Bernal, that is when Ester and, and Minnie came in, but that was way later. And I was in there in the Sixties. Dr. Gutierrez: What was the first state Democratic convention that you went to? Ms. Pena: Oh, my God. I don't remember it. Dr. Gutierrez: That's when they had the Unit Rule and you were, you were forced to, you... Ms. Pena: Oh yes. We were forced outside, yes. Dr. Gutierrez: ....were forced to go with... Ms. Pena: Yeah. We had the Unit Rule, yeah, and we would go, we had to go along, yeah. Majority ruled, yeah. That's when the Unit Rule was there. And, but I went to a lot of those. A lot of times we had the, the convention, and we won. That was when there was a one party state. They would, and the Unit Rule, OK. We would win at conventions because, of course, we had majority. We would go to the convention and somebody else would hold the convention or they didn't even hold a convention. Not in our precinct because they knew better because we knew the rules. We knew everything. And, and I got a lot of, I was very active in that. Now, that I want to take a lot of credit for because I got the people organized in that area in the conventions. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you do that? Ms. Pena: Our Mexicanos and that? Dr. Gutierrez: How did you do it? Ms. Pena: I did it by calling people. Dr. Gutierrez: On the phone or in person? Ms. Pena: On the phone. And if I saw them on the street, if I belonged to the church, wherever you have a natural group to make a con, or group or you make a contact. I got all my church people involved in politics, even the Anglos that, that were, that had the same thinking as myself. That they, they were liberals and they wanted to go this way. I, I would get them involved. So, it was a, a, you know, a, a mixture there. It is just like when we won. I mean, we couldn't win by ourselves. Now, we have a lot of Mexicanos voting, but we had to pull them out to get them to the polls. And this is the thing that, about the voter registration is just great. I mean, there is so many issues. I just want to talk about everything. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, there is time. You know, we don't have to finish everything today. We can do it another time Ms. Pena: And you know my, my voter registration... Dr. Gutierrez: ...if you, you get tired. Ms. Pena: ....is very important. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, but then, you had the poll tax. Ms. Pena: Yeah, we had that. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you convince people to pay that money? Ms. Pena: We just did because well, my, my, my thing was, and I, of course, I have trained a lot of, of the girls, the ladies. We were girls then. To go and when we went door knocking, they would say, "AY, No." (Oh, No.) And this and that. And they didn't have, a lot of people didn't have the money because it was $I.75. Dr. Gutierrez: So, what did you do when they didn't have the money but they wanted to…? Ms. Pena: Well, we couldn't pay for them. Dr. Gutierrez: Yes, you could. You didn't do tamaladas? (tamale sales?) You didn't do bailes (dances) and you didn't sell the.... Ms. Pena: Well, well, later on, yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: They had the cake walks and... Ms. Pena: At the beginning, at the beginning we couldn't, you know. And so, later on it was done, but it wasn't, they volunteered and that was like, "OK, you volunteer, you are going to, if you can pay," you know. It was like we would give them a donation. And then they bought it on their own because we couldn't really just buy it out for them. You, you can't. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, and they wouldn't let you be the registrar either? Ms. Pena: No. Dr. Gutierrez: You, you couldn't even sell it to them because... Ms. Pena: No, no we couldn't. But later, on we got, I got deputized. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you do that? Ms. Pena: Through the, the county clerk or county, yeah, county clerk. Dr. Gutierrez: Why did they do it? Why did they let you? Somebody had to push or something had to be done. Ms. Pena: Oh, it was Albert, of course. He... Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, Albert? Ms. Pena: Uh huh. Jimmy Knight. I think it was Jimmy Knight that was the one. No, it was Anderson, yeah, and then, Jimmy Knight. Of course, Jimmy Knight was a liberal. I knew Jimmy Knight real well. I knew a lot of Anglos and a lot of Blacks that were liberal. Dr. Gutierrez: Was this when [Ralph] Yarborough was coming up and challenging [Allan] Shivers and all that? Ms. Pena: Yeah, it was, it was later, yeah. That was later. But right at the beginning Dr. Gutierrez: Well, no, she was in the Fifties, late Fifties. Ms. Pena: The late Fifties, yeah, yeah, and the poll tax was still here. Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: Yeah. No, the poll tax didn't end until 1966. Ms. Pena: Sixty. In the Sixties. Dr. Gutierrez: 66. Ms. Pena: Yeah. 66. So, we were doing, yeah, we were selling poll taxes. When Albert got into the, when Albert got into country commissioner, that is a key position, but the county commissioners can go in there... And if they don't have an interest, they cannot push a thing. You have to be an organizational man and you have to be an organizational woman. And I feel that if a county commissioner gets in there, they can deputize people. Now, we don't need it because we have Southwest Voter Registration, but at that time you, how are you going to get the people to come in and, and, and pay their poll tax if we didn't go door knocking? See. But we got people to be get deputized and what happened was... OK, we would get a deputy. OK, say that we would get, he would say OK, Anderson first. He would say OK, we are going to get ten deputies. OK. We get ten deputies. But we get a group like voter registration and we would go canvassing. We started canvassing when no one knew what canvassing was for the repeal of the poll tax. But we would go first to sell the poll tax and for the repeal. We tried to repeal early, but, of course, it didn't pass when they put it on the, on the ballot. And then, until the, the, the, they pronounced it unconstitutional, then that is when we got rid of the poll tax. But at the time, we had to sell the poll taxes, so we had the ten deputies and we still got groups to go and do it; get the names and then we would funnel them through those deputies. We would have them collect the money. You had to have your leaders and all that and I helped in all that. I helped in all that. I did a lot of that. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, why did Albert choose to run for state representative and not say, city council or school board or something less that he could win? Ms. Pena: Well, OK. Gosh, he just wanted to take a shot at it and, and to, to break the, break the ice, make an impact or something. And this was against Ray T. Felixson. He was the worst conservative there is. Anyway, so he ran through that against Ray T. Felixson as anindependent and, of course, he got in the runoff. And when he got on the run off, Charlie Leak and Maury Maverick, Jr. and Sheridan, Ed Sheridan came to, to help Albert. And, of course, there they got the, the, the other independents together. So they got together, the three independent who was, was Anise Semann, no it was Fred Semann. It wasn't Anise. Anise was a professor at St. Mary's University. Fred Semann, who was running and he didn't win, of course. Fred Semann, what was that name of that guy? They have a car lot. They sell car, Pontiacs. Oh my God. Dr. Gutierrez: Dunn? Ms. Pena: No, no, no, no. He is not around anymore. Tindall. Tindall. Dr. Gutierrez: Tindall? Ms. Pena: Uh huh. Otis Tindall. He was running as an independent for another place in the legislature. And so, they got together and then, Maury and, and Charlie Leak came in and Maury Merrick came in and, and helped them. And, of course we used to have rallies in the different places and we would set them up. I would call and all that and, and we would get everybody that we knew through the Democratic Women, through, because I was already in the Democratic Women and stuff like that. And my dad, we would even take my dad. You would just grab anybody that you can, that will volunteer. If you didn't have enough volunteers and we would, we really didn't have the, the, the organized group that we had later. And we would pass out tickets because Tindall had a car, an old car that he was raffling. So we would call the people and they would go to the different places and, and whoever was sponsoring the, the rally, the neighborhood rally, well they would do the calling and see, they got their people in. And through the executive committee, which is the precinct committee, you know, executive committee, we would get people there because the executive committee person was usually the one thatwas holding the, the rallies. See, you can use the executive committee in that way and people do not know the importance of that. That is another thing. Because the executive committee, the person that is a committee man is dominated and, and, and, and they, they have to run for office, so if they get it, that means that, that is the, the boss of that precinct. That person is, is, if it is an active person, can really build up fire and bonfires and everything; can really have it going. But if you don't move, you are just there and you just wait until, then nothing is done. You can do a lot of things. You can have your street fixed and your light goes out, you have a chuck hole, anything; you can do everything. Just with your little precinct, with that thing. Can you imagine if all precinct committee men were organized like that one, what we could do? And I think that is what Southwest Voter Registration has to do. Start finding committee people, so that we can really have a, a good impact; make an impact. Make them become a part of what is going on. A part of building up the system. Dr. Gutierrez: Did Albert win? Ms. Pena: Albert didn't win. Dr. Gutierrez: Any of the others win? Ms. Pena: We, uh, no. None of them won. Then, of course, we had all these rallies and they were real, real good. It was a beginning. I will tell you. A beginning of, of getting in more people, a more general, I mean, a bigger.... Dr. Gutierrez: Now, what year is this? Ms. Pena: This was in 50, 54. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Eisenhower. Ms. Pena: 52, 54. Yeah. And then we, he didn't win. So then, the next, the next time around he was going to run for the legislature and, of course, I had two kids or three kids at that time, three babies. And I said no. Because at that time, they did not pay the, the legislators. They didn'tget, I think two dollars or I don't know what the heck. Some ridiculous price and he was going to neglect his law practice. And I said, "Let me work and go, go to it." "Oh, not You are not going to work!" I was a housewife, but I was an organizer. So, that gave me time to organize. Dr. Gutierrez: He had these attitudes about... Ms. Pena: Oh yes. Dr. Gutierrez: ...that he didn't mind taking you with him on trips and things, but he... Ms. Pena: No, no, no. Dr. Gutierrez: ...didn't want you to work? Ms. Pena: No, no. Dr. Gutierrez: So, he, he didn't want you to be a working woman, but he wanted you to be political? Ms. Pena: Yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: OK. Ms. Pena: Yeah. He would let me do that. Political, si (yes). But to a certain point. OK. So, I mean, let me get to it. Anyway, so we were, we were talking about that and he was going to go for legislature and I said, "No. Let me work." He says, "No, no. I don't want you to work. I am the bread winner. I am the man. I have to work." You know, that machismo (maleness), that Mexicano.... Now, it is different, very different. But some of us just still, you know, got involved, got involved. And I wanted to go every place because I just love it. And so, I said, "No. Why don't you run for something else that provides like a job," you know? "Something that provides your finds, your money, you can support the Family, and you can do what you want to. We can still do what we are doing," you know, "your organizing and, and, and you can provide the, the, you can be the bread winner," you know, "and support us. The support, the familysupport." And so, he said, "OK." And at that time, we were, we would get together with my compadre (sponsor of her child) Ruben Mungia. Dr. Gutierrez: Yes. The printer? Ms. Pena: The printer. Yeah. And we talked about it and he was... Dr. Gutierrez: Your were compadres? Which way? You baptized one of his or he baptized one of yours? Ms. Pena: No, he baptized one of mine. Dr. Gutierrez: Which one? Ms. Pena: Magda. Dr. Gutierrez: Magda? Ms. Pena: Uh huh. And, and then, he, we, we would sit, you know, we would go on weekends and stuff like that and it was politics, politics. And as you know, well, I would go with him; we would go visit the family and they would talk politics and I talked politics and I put in my two cents worth and I said, "No. You are not going to.... Let me work." And Lalo Solis was there, too. Mi Compadre, Lalo Solis. El tambien es compadre. (He is also a sponsor of one of my kids). Dr. Gutierrez: From which, he's from, what did he do? Ms. Pena: Uh, I don't know what he did. Dr. Gutierrez: No, did he baptize one of your kids or did you baptize one of his? Ms. Pena: Yeah. No. One of mine. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, he was Henry B.'s right hand man, no? Ms. Pena: Oh yeah. Later. Uh huh. But at first it was Ruben, Albert, and, and, and, and then, of course, he started going with, hanging around with Henry, but he was our compadre, both of them were compadres. And so, we met at his house or they would come to my house and we would meet. And I was always there in, in the group taking it all in and putting in my two cents worth. Dr. Gutierrez: You wouldn't go sit with the women? Ms. Pena: No. I never did. And you were at my house several times and you know I was always in the living room. I wouldn't stay in the kitchen, you know. I was like, OK, el que diga... (the one that says....), you get out of here. I stayed there and I sat there. Do you remember? Dr. Gutierrez: Yes. Ms. Pena: In the library. I sat there and I heard everything that went on. That is how I would learn. And I was interested. I was interested. If I hadn't been interested, I would have said, "Ooh, you all talk your stuff, your man talk." But, and I would get out of there, but I wouldn't because I was interested in everything that was going on. And from the beginning I was interested. When I was growing up, I was interested. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was doing something and then after I got focused, I said, "OK. This is what you are doing. This is what you like to do.” And up to when I retired, I was still doing it. Not politically, but somehow getting involved in, in certain things that helped the people in another way. Dr. Gutierrez: So, you talked him into not running for the legislature, but you talked him into running for.... Ms. Pena: County Commissioner. Dr. Gutierrez: County Commissioner. In 56? Ms. Pena: Uh huh. And, of course, he ran. This person was very strong. He was Tart..., Toggett, or Target or Den Trogget. Den Trogget was his name, who was in office, you know. And he heard all the commotion that was going on. Albert announced and all that. And we got organized and, and we won. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you do that? Ms. Pena: We got organized by, we would, we met with, we had our, our, our, our meetings with Mungia and Lalo.. Of course, that was when we decided that he was gonna run for County Commissioner and let me tell you what, what this was. Lalo committed. He says, "Oh I willhelp you compadre." And Mungia said, "I will help you. I will help you with the printing." See. I will put out the material and, and of course, I didn't say anything but I said, "Well, I will help with whatever I can." But Albert wasn't, still didn't want me to run the headquarters. You know, he wanted, he didn't put me in charge of, of things. I just did what I did. Dr. Gutierrez: In spite of him? Ms. Pena: Yeah. It is just, I just, a spot here and here and here. When it became down to issues and we had to get the executive committee to the polls or to the, for an issue, Albert would tell me, "Call, call the executive committee," and I would call them. He would say, "We have an issue that is coming up," and I would call them. And I knew everybody by first name. He didn't and I did. I would get, I had my list. I would get them. I was the one that would file them all, that too. You know, I would file them for office and, of course, he would, he would pay for the... Him and Ruben would pay for the little cards that they were passing out in the, at the polls and they got elected with that because they, they didn't put out any moneys. The people didn't have it. But that is how we, we did it. But, of course, Ruben provided the cards and at a minimum. He, I guess, just the cost of whatever it took him. That is it. And, of course, Albert was the one that provided them and I called the, the executive committee to go and vote on an issue. And we meet that because at that time, it was at-large [election]. The whole thing. The whole county. And now, of course, you have your different districts. Now, it is district, so it has changed a bit. It has changed a bit. But, it was, it was so much fun. It was really. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, that must have been an incredible feat because that is the day of the poll tax still. What was it 56? Ms. Pena: Right. Dr. Gutierrez: Mexicanosstill not registering. A lot of them are afraid of, of the sheriffs particularly and the police and things. Ms. Pena: Yeah. Well, see they could chat. Dr. Gutierrez: How did you get all of this done? Ms. Pena: I don't know. I would just call and call and just hit in the bushes, hit in the bushes, hit in the bushes. Dr. Gutierrez: Did you all do stuff on the radio? KCOR and that was the only station that basically owned.... Ms. Pena: Yeah. Estaba Cortez. (There was Cortez.) KCOR. I knew Cortez. Estaba Manuel Leal en otra estacion, no me acuerdo cual (There was Manuel Leal at another station, I don't recall which one...). I think they were the only two. KCOR and, and Manuel Leal. And they didn't have too many. Dr. Gutierrez: So, you didn't have a media campaign or it was door knocking? Ms. Pena: It was mas (more) door knocking really. Door knocking, door knocking, and by meeting in the church and this and that. All the time. In, in, in the meetings, OK, we got into the, I know what it was too. Also, the G. I. Forum. Like I said, your natural groups. I belonged to the auxiliary, the American G. I. Forum. Estaba (There was) Carmen Villegas. She married Richard Casillas who was a, the immigration later. OK. Richard Casillas. He was a lawyer, also. And we used to meet at my father-in-law's office and through that we, we, through the G. I. Forum also, you know, there was people, the guys that were in the G. I . Forum. Of course, that was when Dr. Garcia, Hector Garcia, I went to all the conventions in the American G. I. Forum at that time until my divorce and all that, but I was involved in all of that. I held the convention here for the G. I. Forum, me and Father Benachek, who was a, he was the Sergeant at Arms or something for the whole area convention and all that. He, he held that position. That was for life. And we got to meet a lot of people throughout thestate because I went to the convention. And the G. I. Forum was real active throughout the state and doing a lot of the stuff. And people like yourself that we met then, and, so on and so forth. And I, I met you when you came to my home. Of course, through Albert. But I was, like I said, I was always in de metiche(involved). Dr. Gutierrez: Well, that is still later on. Way down the road here. Ms. Pena: Way down, yeah. Dr. Gutierrez: So, in 56 he wins. What, what did you do to set an agenda, to get the issues to him? Ms. Pena: OK. Dr. Gutierrez: Or did you just leave him alone? You got to win on your own. Ms. Pena: No. When Albert won for Democrat... Dr. Gutierrez: County Commissioner. Ms. Pena: ...for County Commissioner, te digo (I tell you), that is when we really, because let me tell you. He got in there. The first day that he went after that when we were, the first day after the election, we got... No, the next time around when we had to sell poll tax, we were doing it out of his office. I would do it, I was there and, and everybody would bring me the money. And I had to have money for all of these names. And I have got them in order and everything and, and that was in the old office. But I was a, everything came through me. And that is why those key, those are key positions that people do not use to benefit them. And I am not talking about us, personally. No. To benefit the general public, our people, you know. You can use those things like that and it is not against the law. It is educational. It is educational. We were educating the people to go vote. And sometimes they could pay it. But later on, OK... And the issues that we used for them to, to, to buy them; hey we have got to get our people in there. Nunca vamos a salir de la misma cosa. (We will never get out of the same thing.) Something they could understand. Youknow. You have to buy it, para que voten por alguien que nos va a ayudar. (so that you can vote for someone who will help us)and things like that. Dr. Gutierrez: So, where did you all get going with the Kennedy's? Ms. Pena: Uh, with the Kennedy's? We won conventions. Is somebody coming here? Dr. Gutierrez: Oh, it is my family. Que horas son? (What time is it?) Ms. Pena: Oh, your family. Dr. Gutierrez: Time flies.... Ms. Pena: Oh.... Dr. Gutierrez: Well, answer that question and then we will, we will stop it there. Ms. Pena: OK. And the Kennedys Dr. Gutierrez: Because we are in the Sixties. It was I956. The term goes to 60. Ms. Pena: OK. Through Sixty. In 60, Albert got elected to the, to the national convention. Of course, we went precinct convention and we had our committee man in place, we had committee men in place. They held the conventions. They called their people to get them to the, to the convention. We want the conventions because at that time, it wasn't one man, one vote. We had to win the convention. And if you didn't win them, you couldn't go to the national because you had to havethat vote to be able to go. So... Dr. Gutierrez: Was that the first one that you got to go? First national convention you got to go? Ms. Pena: No. Well, the one that I went to, I wasn't a, a delegate. Albert was, but I wasn't. Dr. Gutierrez: But that was the first one? Ms. Pena: The first one, yeah. G. J. [Sutton] got to go for the Negro. That is when we had the coalition, see because Albert was already County Commissioner. And we were organizing all the time, all this time, organizing, organizing, organizing through the, the committee,executive committee, through the barrio, through Democratic Women, through G. I. Forum, through, throughout the state with the G. 1. Forum. And anytime we needed something that somebody else le llamabas a fulano, a Bob Sanchez en (you called somebody, to Bob Sanchez in) in McAllen. Ed Pena in Laredo and, so on and so forth, you know, it just.... We, we kept touch like that, you know, with your key people in different places, different areas. Just like you do with your Southwest Voter Registration. And so, he went to the convention there and, and that is how we... Of course, he got the liberals we were with and they took that other groups to be able to do it. It took the labor. It took the Blacks, and it took the independent liberals and the Mexicano groups to get the, the people to go to the convention, to get elected. And what happened was that we went to the state. We won the state conventions and Lyndon Johnson was a favorite son, candidate. And, of course at that time, you elected him at the convention not at the polls because it wasn't the one. This hadn't come about at that time. So, Albert got to go to the convention because Lyndon released them after he did not get it in the first round. I was there when they had the voting for the, I didn't go to the, to the intermediate convention. But, later on, when they had the nominations, that is when I went. And he did not win the first go around. Adali Stevenson got a standing ovation. Ahh, it was the most beautiful thing. With balloons and everything. More so than any of them. But, of course, Kennedy won. But at the state, the, the, Lyndon Johnson and, and our group nominated Albert to go. Our group to go in because he was, Albert got nominated to the convention because he was committee For Lyndon Johnson. G. J. Sutton for the Blacks. I believe it was...Ay, como se llama...? (Oh, what is his name...?) For labor. I don't remember the guy from labor. I can't remember his name. And then the independent liberal no me acuerdo quien era. (I don't remember who it was). Dr. Gutierrez: Maury Maverick? Ms. Pena: Not Maury. Was it Maury? Dr. Gutierrez: Mark Thomas? Ms. Pena: I guess. I guess so. Yeah, Maury. Y el otro era el head de labor (The other was the head of labor.) Had the labor, aqui (right here) that there in San Antonio, pero no me acuerdo su nombre.. (But I don't remember his name.) Anyway, he, they are the four that went from San Antonio, from Bexar County. And then, when he was at the convention and the, he met, he met Mennen Williams. I have a picture of him there with, with, when we were together, when he came to San Antonio later on and he was in the minorities group and issues for como se llama (what's it called)? Put in... Dr. Gutierrez: Platform. Ms. Pena: Huh? Dr. Gutierrez: For the platform. Ms. Pena: Yeah. For the platform. And Albert talked to him and he, he made friends with him and all that and then he came to San Antonio later. But, since they were there and, and Albert called Dr. Hector, Hector... Dr. Gutierrez: Garcia. Ms. Pena: Garcia, so that he could have their support. The Chicanos. Si. (Yes) Because nobody was... Dr. Gutierrez: Was that the beginning of the Viva Kennedy Clubs? Ms. Pena: Yes. Dr. Gutierrez: So, Albert was the one doing that? Ms. Pena: Yeah. Albert was, Albert was a delegate, si. (yes.) And with Mennen Williams. OK? And some other people, but Mennen Williams was a key, OK? And then he said, he called Dr,, Dr. Garcia and he called whoever was the, I don't remember who was the head of LULACwas. He called them too and said, "Hey, I am at the convention and, and what do you want?" You know, "I am here. Will you, can we go with the clubs," you know? Because we were in the G. I. Forum. He was in LULAC also. And so, yeah. They gave him the go ahead. And so, he did. But he contacted them too. He didn't just say I am going to do anything y me van a seguir.. (and you will follow me. No. Nothing like that. Porque asi no se hacen las cosas, que me sigan a mi. (Because that is not how you do things, that you will follow me.) No, let them know what is going on. I mean, make them a part of... If you don't make them a part of se fregan las cosas. (the things go wrong.) Anyway, so then, he called them and they agreed whatever. So, then he, he got contacted by, I think it was Bobby then, Bobby Kennedy and he met them there. And they had their meetings and so on and so forth. Dr. Gutierrez: Now was Albert also running for re-election in I960? Ms. Pena: Si. Me parece que si.(Yes. I think so.) Dr. Gutierrez: How many terms did he serve as commissioner? Ms. Pena: Sixteen years. So that is four. Dr. Gutierrez: That is four terms. OK. OK. OK. Ms. Pena: Four years. Dr. Gutierrez: Well, I am going to have to stop the interview because I got here lateand, and.... Ms. Pena: Yo me desvagalo.... I get off track... Dr. Gutierrez: That's OK. It will give me another excuse to come see you again. Ms. Pena: Andale. (OK.) Then, you tell me talk about this particular issue and we will talk just about that. Dr. Gutierrez: All right, well, we, we, at least we got up to I960 and the beginning of the Viva Kennedy Clubs, so we will pick up there a little later on. Thank you for your time, Olga. Ms. Pena: Really, I am sorry. Abrele aquí... (Open this...) Dr. Gutierrez: This is my wife. Gloria. Ms. Pena: Me quede sentada. (I remained sitting.) Hi. How are you Gloria? Mrs. Gutierrez: Very nice. Dr. Gutierrez: This is Olga Pena. Mrs. Gutierrez: Nice to meet you. Ms. Pena: I am Olga. Mrs. Gutierrez: Gloria Garza Gutierrez. Ms. Pena: Gracias. (Thank you). It is a pleasure. Mrs. Gutierrez: Thank you. Ms. Pena: How do you keep up with this guy? Mrs. Gutierrez: Well, I just kind of go along with the program.