Oral History Interview with Ernesto Calderon, 1998 Calderon, Ernesto Interview conducted by José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Interview transcribed by Karen McGee José Angel Gutiérrez Transcript converted to XML encoding by Julie Williams Center for Mexican American Studies, University of Texas at Arlington Texas State Library and Archives Commission 87 pages; KB.

Published online as part of the Tejano Voices Project.

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 2001

Source: MS-Word file transcript of video recording CMAS No. 125.

Oral history interviews published online as the Tejano Voices Project, partially funded by a grant received in 2001 from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission's TexTreasures program.

 English Spanish Calderon, Ernesto Gutierrez, Jose Angel University of Texas at Arlington. Center for Mexican American Studies Mexican Americans--Texas--Interviews oral history interview Tejanos Chicanos

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Oral History Interview with Ernesto Calderon, 1998 Center for Mexican American Studies (CMAS) Interview Number 125Mexican American Public Figures of Texas Interviewee: Ernesto Calderon Interviewer: José Angel Gutiérrez, Ph.D., J.D. Transcribers:Karen McGee and José Angel Gutiérrez Date of Interview: October 25, 1997 Location of Interview: Austin, Texas Number of Transcript Pages: 87Cite this interview as Oral History Interview with Ernesto Calderon, 1998 , by José Angel Gutiérrez. CMAS No. 125 Ernesto Calderon Dr. Gutiérrez: [Note: Mr. And Mrs. Calderon were interviewed together. Please consult the video for the actual dialogue. The persons are separated here so each can have their own voice.] We are in the home of Ernesto and Ruby Calderon and you have executed your deed of gift forms. You know we are doing a video archive not only of the tape and the transcripts, but hopefully some memorabilia if you want to add because, to your archive, because this is your personal archive. Mr. Calderon: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: We want to cover four areas. Biography of the family, your early childhood’s respectively, and, and the person that’s, we’re waiting on is, is Ruby Trevino Calderon, but, but she’ll be here, and third we’re going to talk about your political activism and then fourth, your opinion on issues and, and organizations and leaders. So why don't we start off on, on your side Mr. Calderon: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ernesto. Who is Ernesto Calderon? Your parents; grandparents; where did they come from; when; where did you all live; how many kids you got; when you met Ruby; why Ruby; and all that? Mr. Calderon: Esta bueno. Primeramente, (That’s good. First of all,) I was born in Waco, Texas. My parents were Octaviano Ramon Calderon and my mother was. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Go ahead. Yeah. Let, let me stop you. I know it’s going to get a little warm, but could I turn that off because I don't think we’re going to be able to pick, Ms. Calderon: He can’t, you can’t hear. Mr. Calderon: Sure. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah, yeah. Mr. Calderon: I, I believe I just. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: There? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Arriba . Up. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. I’m sorry. You want to start over? Who is Ernesto Calderon? Ms. Calderon: I didn't, I didn't want to be smelling like food. Mr. Calderon: Bueno, soy el hijo de Octaviano Ramon Calderon, (Good, I am the son of Octaviano Ramon Calderon,) my father and my mother’s name is Severa Ochoa, was Severa Ochoa Rivera. Married my father. They, I interviewed her not too long ago and the funny thing about marriage is the, of the years past. They never dated. They passed notes back and forth and that’s the way they, they got to know each other and then my father’s parents came over and asked them for my mother’s hand in marriage and, and that kind of a thing. I’m the oldest of, of eight kids. Dr. Gutiérrez: Could you tell us who your mother was and where they came from? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yes. They’re, Dad, it really depended on his mood. One day he was from New Mexico, another day he was from Mexico. In talking to my mother and some of my aunts, he was born in Mexico around Monclova. [city in Mexico]. And was brought to the United States at, at a, I guess about fourteen months, something like that. So that’s, that was where he, he came from. Mom was actually born in Waco. Her parents are from San Antonio. So, it goes, it goes, I guess, the generation or the, their, my great-grandparents were from San Antonio also, but were, at that point, I guess it was Mexico entonces. (then.) Dr. Gutiérrez: That had to be, yeah. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. So, from, from the great-grandparents on my mother’s side, este, de Mexico. (ah, from Mexico. My father. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you know when your mother was born? Mr. Calderon: I've got that information somewhere. She’s seventy nine years old. She is twenty years young, older than I am. And, and in April the. . . Ms. Calderon: 6th. Mr. Calderon: . . . the 6th of 19 Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. And your dad? Mr. Calderon: Dad passed away about fifteen, twenty years ago. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he was how old? Mr. Calderon: He was, he was eighty seven at the time. Dr. Gutiérrez: At the time? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s good enough. Now we can construct that. Mr. Calderon: So, so we have some good genes in terms of. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah, OK. Mr. Calderon: . . . a long life. I’m the oldest of, of eight kids. The first four were boys y luego sigen tres mujeres. (and then three women follow.) And then, the last one was, was a brother. Dr. Gutiérrez: What are their names? Mr. Calderon: El que me sigue a mi (The one that follows me) is Edward. The one that follows him is Venecio, Ben. El que le sigue a el es (The one that follows him) is Junior. He goes by Tino because that’s what my dad went by. Pero es, es (But he is, is) Junior. He’s Octaviano Ramon Calderon. Then, es (is), is Maria. La que sigue a ella (The one that follows her) is Julia y luego (and then) Dolores y el pequeno es Roberto. (and the little one is Roberto.) Dr. Gutiérrez: Let, let me ask you if we can stay in English? It’s certainly easier for transcription. Mr. Calderon: OK. Ms. Calderon: Oh. OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: Or all Spanish. But mixing just gets the transcribers nuts. Ms. Calderon: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So can you tell me why the family moved to Waco or why they settled in Waco? Mr. Calderon: My, my grandparents on my mother’s side had been in Waco for a good number of years. As a matter of fact, all of my aunts and uncles were born in Waco. I don't know exactly when they moved to Waco pero (but) they had been there for a long time. On my father’s side, my grandparents on his side never really lived in Waco. I think they were primarily from around this area, Austin. I, I don't know how it is that my dad wound up in, in Waco. Pero (But) he apparently had been there for a good while because back in those days they lived on, on farms or ranches and you know, were, were ranch hands for whoever owned the, the ranch. But basically that’s what my father’s background and what my, my grandparents on my mother’s sides backgrounds was, was farming. Dr. Gutiérrez: And your early childhood, you know, where did you grow up; what do you remember of that; where did you go to school? Mr. Calderon: I grew up in what they call "White City" in Waco and a lot of people think that that’s, it, it has racial connotations, but it isn’t. It’s because all of the houses were painted white. It was a fairly mixed neighborhood in, in the sense that there were whites, there were Blacks that lived, lived further down the street a couple of blocks, there were, the, primarily Chicanos in, in that neighborhood. And these are the people that we grew up with, the people that we went out picking cotton with, the people that we traveled to Indiana, to Michigan, and you know, different states to harvest crops. Dr. Gutiérrez: So you were migrants? Your family was a migrant. . . Mr. Calderon: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . family? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Different in the sense that, that you probably know migrants because they came from South Texas north. What we did and, and let me tell you at this point that Mom brought us up speaking English. We didn't know any Spanish. So we were ridiculed in, in school for being Mexican, then we’d migrate to the Valley to harvest crops down there, cebolla (onions) and whatever. And we were ridiculed by Razaa in the Valley because we couldn’t speak Spanish. So we grew up with a tremendous inferiority complex. But then, from that point, then we started migrating along with the people from South Texas. We went up into, like I say, Indiana, Michigan, went as far as Washington state for apples and that kind of thing, and then, we’d come back to Waco. And first thing my mother would do would be enroll us in school. Well, this would be around October, so the school year had already started. That set us back a half a grade. So by the time I was in the twelfth grade, I was probably a couple of years older than all the rest of the kids. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where did you all go pick cotton? Mr. Calderon: Around the, the local area a lot. There, we would come up south around Seguin, Lockhart, San Marcos, down around Taft. Dr. Gutiérrez: Robstown? Mr. Calderon: Robstown, around those areas. Dr. Gutiérrez: How about West Texas? Mr. Calderon: Later on in the year we would go to West Texas para el pule, (for the pulling), pull cotton in West Texas, which was always an experience because. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, that, that word is used for two different things. Can you describe what, in your experience, pule, means? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Picking cotton is. . . You actually pick the cotton out of the, the cotton boll, OK. Pulling cotton is you pull the boll and everything, and so, what you can do is, is get the bottom of the stalk and just run your hand up the stalk and throw everything into the sack. Now what you got paid per pound was much less that way than it was by, by pulling cotton, so that’s what we mean by pulling cotton. And, as a matter of fact, that’s what the, the, your cotton machines do today is what we used to do by hand. They, they do mechanically. But in West, in West Texas we used to experience a lot of discrimination in terms of you know, seeing signs in restaurants: Mexicans or Dogs Not Allowed. We’d have to sit up in the balcony with the, with what few Blacks were in the area. But what they just didn't understand is that we enjoyed the movie just as much sitting upstairs or downstairs. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now this was only in West Texas? Mr. Calderon: Well, primarily, yeah. To some extent, around Waco, but that, it wasn’t as overt in, in Waco as it was in, in, in West Texas. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you tell us a little bit about the wage scale? How, how much do you remember earning when you were a little kid? Mr. Calderon: Oh gosh. Dr. Gutiérrez: Or high school? Mr. Calderon: We used to pick and we would, my dad and I, was what we called a milero (thousand-pounder). He picked a thousand pounds a day, so he was one of the best at, at what he did. And we were pretty good. So as, as far as earning, I, I really don't have a feel for that because everything went to, to, to the family. Except on Saturdays, what we got to pick on Saturday morning was ours and we’d wind up with say five, six, seven dollars at the end of the day and that was a hell of a lot of money in those days. So as kids, we were pretty well off during the season. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you work all day Saturday or just half a day? Mr. Calderon: Usually half a day. Because in, in the afternoon I mean, we’d come out of the fields and, and bathe, and then, go to town to buy the groceries. And the men had their, their beers. And if it was a wet area they’d go to a, if it was a dry area they’d go to a wet area and stack up on the beer and bring it. And that way, you know, we’d let off a little, little pressure or steam and that kind of thing. Dr. Gutiérrez: When you went about, where did you stay? Housing. Mr. Calderon: Usually it was in tents that we had or we would go on a farm and clean out a chicken coop. And the chicken coop was our place of abode during the time we were at that particular, particular farm. So, when we left that was the cleanest chicken coop in the area, but living in chicken coops was one of, one of the things that we did. A lot of times it was tents. Once in a great while they’d have a house that we could stay in during the, the time that we were working for that particular landlord. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did your mother also work alongside with you in the field and then at home or did she stayed home? Mr. Calderon: All of us, all of, no, she, she worked alongside with us. And we were just talking to someone about that the other day. Mom would be the first one up and started making the tortillas. Dad would be the second one up. Then, he in turn would get us up. And, and one of the things that I remember about waking up was laganas. (sleep in your eyes) Now I've, I've looked for a translation of laganas. And people come up with different things. Some call it sleep; others call it goo, you know, that, that, that glues your eyes closed. So, I really don't know the name of it, but it’s, you know, the stuff that comes out of your eyes, dries up, and when you wake up you can’t open your eyes and it’s panic time. I mean, Mom, I can’t see! You know, that kind of thing. But, you know, eventually we’d rub our eyes and, and, and get the sleep out of our eyes. Then, of course, we would get up and, and breakfast would be ready, prepared by Mom. Dad would have all the cotton sacks ready, and by the time we got through eating breakfast we were ready to go. And more often than not, Mom would go with us. If it was, if we were picking or harvesting a, a crop in an area that was close to where we lived, then she would come home at lunch, just before lunch, prepare lunch, and then, take it out to the field. And we would eat, get under the truck in the shade and have our tacos and, and, and the like. And, of course, at quitting time she would leave the field first, go home, prepare, prepare supper, and then, we’d come home. We’d clean up, eat our food, Dad and the men, you know, would sit around and either work on the cars that, that were put together with baling wire and that kind of thing or would just sit around and talk. Well, Mom was still inside. She’d be washing the dishes; she’d get through with that, she’d start ironing. And, generally was the last one in bed; first one to rise and the last one in bed. And of all the memories that I have of my Mother, I've never once heard her complain about working too hard, about, you know, having to go out in the fields. I never heard her complain. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was your best memory and your worst memory of going to school wherever it was? Mr. Calderon: I, I guess the, the best memory was, you know, the, the idea of learning. Like I say, we didn't speak Spanish so the, the. . . We went to school and we didn't have that, that accent, you know, that a lot of folks have. The learning experience was really what I enjoyed. Even if I was older than the other kids. I, I've got to say that age had a certain amount of advantages in that I was bigger than the other kids, so there was a certain amount of respect that came along with that. But I, I think the learning experience was, was my best memory. The worst, I guess you know, as kids you really don't know what’s happening so it’s, it’s got to be in retrospect that, that you see, you know, the bad memories and, and the good memories because at the time you’re just experiencing it. At least that’s the way I look at it. You just experience it. There really wasn’t any flagrant discrimination that I recall. And, and I, I say the reason for that is being that we were just a small number. We weren’t a threat to the majority of students. We were kind of an oddity, so, because there were so few of us we weren’t, we weren’t a threat to, you know, to the school system in terms of, of wanting certain types of courses to be added and that kind of a thing. In other words, we were pretty damn docile during their, our public education years. I guess one, one of the, the bad memories, and it really isn’t, isn’t bad, but it was an exhibit of racism that, that I later looked back on as, as an exhibit of racism. You know, most of the time we, as a people, are looked on as less than the white student in the class. I don't know why, but this principal liked all of us and, and maybe it’s because we didn't have the accent. I don't know. That’s the only thing I can think of. But she called me into the office one day and she says, "I don't want you hanging around with this guy, this guy, this guy, or this one. " And the names she was mentioning were people that lived in my barrio, the guys that I played with, the guys that I knew, and she never did explain why. But these were guys that had real heavy accents, you know. So, that’s the only reason that I can, that I can think back on that and, and say this is why she didn't want me to hang, to, to hang out with these guys. If you really look at it from the perspective of how we were treated in school, probably better than, than, than most students, Chicanos or whites, because she recognized that we came from a poor family so we got meal tickets to eat in the schools. This was way before the free lunch programs. And then, sometimes that was the, the best meal we had during the day, you know. So the, the discrimination that a lot of people felt later on, we didn't, we didn’t catch it. And I've looked back and tried to zero in on some of this stuff because maybe, I think maybe I didn't recognize it at the time because many of the times we don't. Le sacamos vuelta. (We go around it.) We go around the issue rather than facing it directly. But generally, that’s, that’s, you know, the recollection of the, of the educational process in the public schools. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did you finally graduate? Mr. Calderon: From high school? I didn't. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you go into the military? Mr. Calderon: See, I finished, I finished the, the ninth grade and that was the extent of the public education because at, at age fourteen, I told Dad, "I'm not going picking cotton anymore, Dad." And his response was, "Well, get a job in town. " So I got a part time job at one of the restaurants, and then, enrolled in a business school, majoring in accounting and business law and, and typing. Then, one day, going to the theater, to the drive in theater, one of the, the white kids in the neighborhood invited me to go to, to the movies and on the way asked me if I would be interested in joining the 11th Airborne with him? And I said, "Sure. " So the problem then became one of conniving Mom to sign the pap, papers because that, at that point I was seventeen years old and needed parental consent. He had already gotten his. Dad, no problem, you know. He would sign in a, in a minute, but Mom was another story. I had to convince her that that’s really what I wanted to do. And if I regretted it later I wouldn't blame her and you know, all kinds of stuff. But yeah, I went into the military on April 22nd of 1947. Dr. Gutiérrez: Saw the tail end of World War II? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: How come, how come there was this, this Anglo buddy and not the Chicano buddies that signed up together? Mr. Calderon: We, they lived across the street from us. And as kids we played together all the time. And we didn't see color. I mean, we played with all the kids in the neighborhood and we never saw color. I, I guess the only color we saw was Black and I don't know why. And we didn't see it in a negative sense, but we recognized that this guy was Black. I guess we grew up with a white mentality. And, and I'm not proud to say that, but you know, it’s, it’s the way that we were brought up and the neighborhood that we were brought up in. We felt like a white person. Dr. Gutiérrez: What was this Anglo kid’s name? Mr. Calderon: Eldon Adams. He passed away about three weeks ago. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh my goodness. Mr. Calderon: And he, we, we were complete opposites in personalities. He was a real extrovert. I was an introvert. He was always making friends real easy, getting into, into fights. People really had to work to, to get to know me. I didn't make friends very easy. That inferiority complex, I think that, that was caused by the, you know, the educational process, the, the ridicule in Waco and in the Valley, and just about everywhere we went. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, what did you do for fun as you’re growing up? Did you have church relationships? Did you be in the Boy Scouts or did you play Little League; did you play sports in high school or junior high? Did you run for class president? Mr. Calderon: No. Like I say, I, I quit or was pushed out at, at the ninth grade. The, the recreation was mostly, you know, what kids play. Cops and robbers, we made our own horses out of sticks and we made all of our toys. We made the scooters out of two by fours and, and, and skates. And it wasn’t until later that we had bicycles and that kind of a thing. So, the entertainment was kid entertainment. Once I started going to business school, by that time I was, like I said, I was sixteen or so, I began going to pool halls. So, pool was my specialty in terms of, of entertainment, you know. So, basically that’s the kind of recreation that we had. The movies downtown, sometimes Waco had a square, like most cities had in those days, and there was the Fox Theater. The Fox Theater that was on the square that. . . The movies cost, I think, it was a nickel and that’s where they had the, the major features, the serial, the cartoons, and, and that kind of stuff. You know, so to go to a movie was really a treat. And usually it was the Fox Theater. If you, if you go south on, on, on Austin Avenue in Waco, which is the main street, the first theater on the right hand side was the Rex and there the movies were something like seven cents each. So we went there sometimes and if we really considered ourselves being uptown, we went to the Crystal where it was ten cents. And the further up Lawson Street you went the higher it was. So, most of the Chicanos got as far as the Crystal. Very rarely did they get to the Waco Theater which was something like a quarter, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez: And you could sit anywhere? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: In any of those theaters? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, of course, at the Fox, was where all the families went and, you know, you had the, the crying kids and that kind of thing. But the further up Lawson Avenue you went the less of that you saw. Dr. Gutiérrez: Could the Blacks sit anywhere? Mr. Calderon: The Blacks had to sit in the, in the balcony. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, when did you start dating? Mr. Calderon: I went into the military in ‘47. I went through basic training, spent a year up in, in New Hampshire, went to the Philippines, got back in 1950, and at a dance that was, it was a party actually cele, celebrating Ruby’s sister’s birthday. Franck Aleman and Junior Moreno and I went to this, to this dance. We hadn’t been invited, but we went and we were outside and Ruby was passing cookies around, you know, to different people and she got to us and, and offered cookies. And my eyes kind of lit up, but you know, I was, I was still bashful even being Dr. Gutiérrez: In your Twenties? Mr. Calderon: Yes. Being in the military. You know so, that, that was it and then somehow I got word that Ruby was interested in me, so I don't, she started chasing me and, and no. . . . Ms. Calderon: I did not. Mr. Calderon: I, I. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: You’ll get equal time in a minute, Ruby. Ms. Calderon: I’m telling you one of our friends introduced me to you. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Ms. Calderon: Because I didn't say nothing. Mr. Calderon: This, you know, Junior Moreno introduced me to, to Ruby and at some point after that I asked for a date and we started dating. Dr. Gutiérrez: In your Twenties? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Because I was about twenty or twenty one by that time, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, then let’s switch over to Ruby. We’ll park you there for a little while. When we come back we’ll, we’ll talk about your public, your public life and public activism. CONTINUED FROM RUBY CALDERON INTERVIEW Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well all right. Let’s, let’s, did you want to add anything about this because I have one question? You said, Ernesto, you quit or were pushed out. Now that’s two different things. You, you quit, that’s your decision. Being pushed out, that’s their decision. Which was it? Mr. Calderon: I, I think it was really a, a combination of the two. Part of it was, you know, my own decision, but one that grew out of being older than the rest of the kids, which was kind of an embarrassment. And that was caused by being set back by the system half a grade, every year. Not because I was stupid, but simply because that’s the way the system did it, you know. So, I think the system contributed to that and, and this is in retrospect. I look at it as my own decision, but really that had a hell of a lot to do with it. I mean, it was an embarrassment to be in a class where the kids were two years your junior. Dr. Gutiérrez: Doesn’t that. . . Mr. Calderon: To me it was. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . did this happen to the other Chicano kids as well? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Anyone that started school late and, and it was always the Chicanos because practically every one was a migrant. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. All right. Well, then, then tell us in this next segment and you may flip a coin. How did you all start being active in, in public life? I, I mean, I know that you, you went on through your marriage, you had children, you told me about all that. Ms. Calderon: I have a little bit more to add to that. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Ms. Calderon: When we moved here to, to well. . . . After, I forget how long we had been married, we lived in Waco and I started going to night school for awhile. CONTINUED FROM INTERVIEW WITH RUBY CALDERON Dr. Gutiérrez: As a couple, how did you get into the community? Mr. Calderon: Well, there was a gentleman in town by the name of Domingo Capetillo and he saw himself as one of the leaders of the Chicano community in the sense that he was organization oriented. He was responsible for bringing in the LULACs. So, we were charter members of the LULAC Council 273 there in Waco. I, I don't remember the year that that began, but it had, it had to be in the, in the late Fifties or early Sixties. And, and we were active as, as LULACs. Dr. Gutiérrez: Were your parents active at all in any organizations, even the Mutual Benefit Society or anything like that? Mr. Calderon: My grandparents on my mother’s side were, were founders. Dr. Gutiérrez: Of? Mr. Calderon: The Sociedad Mutualista (Mutual Benefit Society) in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: But it’s got a longer name. Sociedad Mutualista . . . Mr. Calderon: Sociedad Mutalista de Jornaleros. Dr. Gutiérrez: De Jornaleros? Mr. Calderon: Uh huh. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Mutual Aid Society for Workers. You know, so my, my grandfather and grandmother were, were active from, from that standpoint. My grandfather was, I don't know. He knew city structure because he managed to petition to have Babgy paved. The street in front of their house, you know. So, he knew how to go about these kinds of things. And, and I guess that’s where I picked up, not knowing the, the political interest, but we joined LULAC and we were real active members in LULAC. And I went through the, you know, being the secretary, the treasurer. I was never the, the, the chair of, of, of the council, but was always active. And then, in 1959 I got orders to go to Spain and took the family with me. Dr. Gutiérrez: You were still in the military? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. I was a Lifer. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, oh. I didn’t, I, I missed that. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, so you were stationed in Waco? How lucky could you get? Mr. Calderon: Well, I don't know whether that’s luck or not. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I mean you, you, you signed up in Waco and they sent you back to Waco. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: That doesn’t happen very often. Mr. Calderon: Well, the, the military is, you know, kind of a story by itself. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, tell it to us. Mr. Calderon: From, from, from, from Waco went to, to Basic Train, Training in, in, at Lackland in San Antonio; from there to New Hampshire; and then, from New Hampshire to the Philippines. Was in the Philippines for two, about two and a half years. I came back just before Korea at, at, in California they assigned me to the James Connally Air Force Base in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, how do you spell Connally? Mr. Calderon: C-O-N-N-A-L-L-Y. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And it was James, named after one of the alleged heroes of World War II from Waco. So, this was there in Waco. And when we joined LULAC, then we started, you know, getting active and that kind of thing. And once in a while our names would come out in the paper. When, when I joined something, that means they had two for one because Ruby is always, you know, part of the, of the deal. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, then let me ask about that because at that time LULAC had a Ladies’ Auxiliary. They were not full members. Mr. Calderon: Right, right. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, so I do know that you come in a pair. Mr. Calderon: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s why we are interviewing you as a pair, but, so how did you work that? Or did you protest or what happened? Mr. Calderon: Well, no, no. They, they started the Ladies’ Auxiliary and she began, she was active in that. But the, the LULACs, in, in their bylaws, their, their mission is to better the education of the Mexican American community. And politics is something that, that they just don't get into. I guess to this date they still don't. But when, when we went overseas and came back LULAC was a, was different than, than we remembered it. So we didn't really rejoin. We went to the dances and everything, but we didn't rejoin LULAC. Dr. Gutiérrez: How, how was it different? Mr. Calderon: It was different in the sense that it had become a social club. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK, yeah. Mr. Calderon: And, and really, at that point, it wasn’t giving out scholarships, it wasn’t championing educational issues or anything like that, so somewhere along that period, Capetillo brought in PASO, the Political Association of Spanish Speaking Organizations. Albert Pena, who was the, the judge in San Antonio, came down and gave his blessings to the chapter, Waco chapter of the, of the Political Association of Spanish Speaking Organizations. And that was the very first organization that I recall whose sole purpose was political. And we had, we had classes and that kind of thing for conducting precinct conventions, county conventions, that kind of a thing. And that’s the point where we began to get active in, in, in politics. Dr. Gutiérrez: You, you were not active in the Viva Kennedy Clubs? Mr. Calderon: No. We were in Spain at the time. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s where you were sent? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. So, so when we came back it, the, PASO was kind of an outgrowth of, of the Viva Kennedy Clubs. So we didn't get in on, on that campaign except to the extent that we followed it, you know, as much as a military person would being away from home. Dr. Gutiérrez: What, what did being in Spain do for your identity? I mean, you, you, you alluded earlier to maybe feelings of inferiority. And Ruby, you had been very sheltered and in not being allowed to go anywhere and here all of a sudden you are in another country with the people that are somewhat like you. What did you all think of that Spain experience? Mr. Calderon: The experience was great. I mean, we, we, we really enjoyed that because it was in como quien dice (like one would say) the Mother Country. Little did we know what they had done to the other side of our heritage. At that time we just didn't know. We, we weren’t aware of it. But we enjoyed it. I mean, it was, I was an advisor for the Spanish Air Force and had Spanish hours and, and, and the whole works. First time Ruby had been away from home for that period of time, so she would get homesick. I would come home and I could, I could slice homesickness with a knife when I walked in the door, so I'd say let’s go somewhere and we’d, we’d go to a movie or, or whatever, you know, just to, to, to do something. And then, came back. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s, let’s hear from Ruby about that. Continued in interview with Ruby Calderon Mr. Calderon: Most Americans that go overseas will conglomerate in an area that where all Americans are. And what we decided to do was live on what you would call the Economy. So, the apartment that we were in was basically Spaniards. There was a German couple, there was an Italian couple, and then maybe one, two, one or, two or three couples that were maybe he was American, she was Italian, he was American, she was German, something like that, but most of them were Spaniards. So we felt like we’d get to know the country that well a lot better. And the other thing that we did that, that, that, or that we didn't do that most Americans do is take these whirlwind tours of Europe while you’re over there. What we did was concentrated on Spain, so we traveled extensively throughout Spain and, and you know, got to where we knew the country pretty well. But I mean, it was a real experience that, you know, like I say. At that time we didn't recognize the, the public school system doesn’t teach you this, the atrocities that they performed against the indigenous peoples of the Americas, you know. So we didn't learn that until after we got back, so. And, and I guess that’s good because we probably wouldn’t have enjoyed the assignment had we known all of this. One story in particular that I remember is Ruby’s mother sent us a poster from the Sociedad Mutualista that was announcing the activities for the Sixteenth of September celebration. So it had, you know, the, the green, white, and red flag and the American flag, you know, crossed. And had the bands that were going to be playing the different days and who was going to give El Grito (The Call) [name given to opening ceremony on the night of the 15th of September] and that kind of a thing. And so, she sent that to us. And when we got it, I took it to work and I put it on the bulletin board in the hallway. I worked at the Air Ministry Police for the Spanish Air Force and, and the Air Ministry were the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force of the, of Spain. Ms. Calderon: Spain. Mr. Calderon: And I damned near got kicked out of Spain because of that. You know, I, I did. It didn't occur to me that, you know, the Sixteenth is our liberation from the Spaniards. Ms. Calderon: From the Spaniards. And we were so proud of this. Mr. Calderon: But I wanted, you know, the, other guys that, that, that were of Mexican descent that were in the Air section and in the Navy section and, you know, working with the Spaniards, I wanted them to know what was going on in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: Right. Mr. Calderon: That was my way of letting them know was putting it on the bulletin board. But, I mean, Spaniards went by there also, and then, some of the big wheels because that was where the, the general of the Army was located. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is the, the, the Mutual Benefit Society still in existence? Mr. Calderon: It, it’s still, it’s still operating in Waco and it’s, it has it’s own hall. It, it has had a hall for as, as long as I can remember and, and it’s always provided entertainment. They are not real active in terms of advocating for the community, but rather they lend themselves to the community. Dr. Gutiérrez: Isn't there purpose just simply insurance? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Burial insurance? Mr. Calderon: For, for the membership, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: And, and maintain the cultural traditions, no? Mr. Calderon: Right. They, they, all their meetings are conducted in Spanish. If you go to address them or maybe you are looking for a donation, you’d better know Spanish, because you got to do it in Spanish. And Ms. Calderon: This is international. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. They were, they were very supportive of, of the different organizations in Waco in terms of those that were addressing community issues. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is LULAC Council 273 still in existence? Mr. Calderon: It’s still in existence. Dr. Gutiérrez: There was another group here, the Mexican American Alliance. What was that all about? Mr. Calderon: The Alliance was an organization that, that, that had representation from the, the Mutualistas, it had representation from LULACs, it had representation from the Waco Missions Recreation Club, from PASO, and then independent people could join it also. Later on, MAYO became, had representation on the, on, in the Alliance, and then, subsequent to that, Raza Unida had representation in the Alliance. But what it was, was an alliance of organizations that, that was formed to address the needs of the Chicano community. The, the Model Cities Program was just not doing anything for the Chicano community. And individually the organizations weren’t, weren’t doing anything either. But we saw where combined, they could, you know, that would be a good power base to, to begin the advocacy role for, for our community. And it, and it took awhile to get it formed, but eventually we did. So, once we got that going we had people that, that knew how to submit proposals. We had people that, that, you know, would have go before the city council and, and either confront them about something that wasn’t being done for the community or, or something that was being done that was counter to the community; the Texas Ranger Museum, for example. I was on the Planning Commission at the time and when they started talking about that, I started, you know, politicking against it because I knew that, you know, the, the, they were very oppressive towards the, the Chicano. But, you know, that was, that was one voice in, in, in a, in a group of about eight, you know, and the other eight were, there was one Black and the rest were white, so one Chicano, one Black, and then six that were white members. And then, of course, they got to establish it. Dr. Gutiérrez: How long did PASO last? Mr. Calderon: PASO? I, I, I really don't remember. It lasted a couple of elections, I know that. So, I mean, my activity in it was about four years. Our activity in it maybe was about four to five years. But it was a real good experience in the, in the sense that it, it kind of raised our political interest. We got to control precinct conventions and nominated ourselves to the county and in the county to the, to the, to the state and, and that kind of a thing, but I think Robert, not Robert, pero (but) Johnny Garibay put it very well one time. At that point he was a member of MAYO. He says, "All you people do is go to your conventions. You endorse candidates. They pat you on the back. Your convention is over, you come back home and you just sit on your butt. " And I got to thinking about that and he was right. That’s what we did. Never any follow-up. You know, if, if you happened to endorse a candidate that was successful, I mean, yeah, we elected somebody so, you know, we were real proud. But we never followed up in terms of, of getting them to support legislation that would benefit the Chicano community. You know, the, the bilingual-lingual issue in terms of the public schools. I mean, it took Carlos Truan to do that. There wasn’t a white legislator that was going to do that. But, you know, had we have had the knowledge that we do now, we would be knocking on that politician’s door saying here’s the bill. You need to introduce this. If you don't, then we’re going to campaign against you. But I, I think the, the, when, when MAYO began talking about, you know, the political activity and that we needed to control our own destiny and that kind of a thing, that’s when the, the ballots started lining up, you know, and, and the brain storming. Raza Unida was mentioned as a, a party that, that would advocate for us or that was, you know. What it was all about then, that began looking more and more attractive, but it took a lot of things to take place in the meantime. For example, I was Vidal de Leon’s campaign manager for city council. At the same time, I was coach here of the Ralph Yarborough campaign. Dr. Gutiérrez: What year is this? Mr. Calderon: ‘71? ‘71 I think it was. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, let me just interrupt you. Did you do any work against the poll tax, to repeal the poll tax back then? Mr. Calderon: No, only to the extent that, that at our precinct conventions we’d introduce. . . What do you call them? Dr. Gutiérrez: Resolutions. Mr. Calderon: Resolutions. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: . . . against the poll tax. Dr. Gutiérrez: And I assume that, that when you say our precinct conventions you were a Democrat? Mr. Calderon: Yes. Yes. And then, subsequent to that at the county convention and we tried to get it passed at the state convention as well. And, and ultimately that, that succeeded. I, I'm reminded of a, of a story about an individual in, in Waco. When we were in PASO, and then, subsequent to that, it, we always got around to politics. Wherever we went politics always seemed to come up. And we went to this gentleman’s house, G. G. Martinez, and, and visited he and his wife at his house and it wasn’t long before we got to talking about politics and he pointed to his poll tax that was in a frame on the wall. Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh huh. Mr. Calderon: And he was just as proud of that poll tax as he could be. And I could see that it hadn’t been stamped. And I said, "Mr. Martinez, it’s wonderful you have your poll tax, but you need to vote. I mean, according to that you haven’t voted. You need to take that poll tax and vote. " I mean, I embarrassed the, the gentleman. But I, I think it drove a point home that, that, that he, that he learned pretty well. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, let’s finish the military. When, how long did you serve? When did you get out and, and what did you do there? Mr. Calderon: In the military when I first went in, I was a fireman and that’s not at the local fire station. This is a fireman that, that shoves coal into a boiler, kind of a fireman. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: From there, I was a dispatcher in New Hampshire and what I did was, was dispatched all the snow equipment when, when it snowed. And they have some pretty severe snows up there. I got into an argument, not an argument, but a disagreement with a, with a civilian supervisor that I had. There was a Corporal Green that supervised crews that, that worked the grounds. In the summertime, you know, the grass and that kind of thing. And in the wintertime, you know, cleared the snow from the roads and that kind of thing. And every time he came to the office, I always said, you know, "I'd really like to work with you. " And my supervisor was a civilian at the time and he says, once I said that to Green and Green left, you know, the supervisor comes up and he says, "I understand you want to work outside. " I said, "Yeah, I'd love that. " I mean, I hate this inside work. He says, "Well, I want you to go outside and, and, and steam wash all of the equipment. " And I looked at him and I said, "I'm not going to go outside and wash that, that equipment. That’s not my job. " He says, "Well, that’s a direct order. I want you to go outside and steam wash all of the equipment. " I said, "I'm not going to do it. Go to hell. " And I got up and walked out. And this, I was in the military. Bear that in mind. Dr. Gutiérrez: But this is a civilian, no? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Right. So, I walked, I walked to the Orderly Room which was a pretty good ways. The civilian had time to call the Orderly Room, but apparently he didn’t. So, I walked in and asked to see the First Sergeant and I told him what took place. He says, "Don't worry about it. " While I was in the room, the civilian called. And at that time I was really into jazz and I was always singing Caledonia because it was a song that Willie Herman recorded. Caledonia, Caledonia, what makes your big head so hard and I mean, it goes on. And that was my nickname. Caledonia. So this, this civilian calls up and, and told Sergeant Brewer, the First Sergeant, he says, "Caledonia walked off the job. " And the First Sergeant says, "Who? " He says, "Caledonia. He says we don't have anybody by that name. " And hung up the phone. So then, he assigned me to clerical duties in, in the Orderly Room and I started doing morning reports and that kind of thing. So, I was a clerk. Went to the Philippines and I was a clerk typist. The, the payroll clerk, one day, was hospitalized. He had syphillis or something, so they said, "You are the payroll clerk. " I had never seen a payroll clerk, a payroll before in my life, and I told the guy, "I don't know a thing about payrolls. " He said, "Well, you’re the payroll clerk. Do the payroll. " And he brought out the file, the whole payroll file. You know in those days they did them by, by hand. So I went through it. To make a long story short, I put together the payroll for that, for that pay period and everybody, everybody got paid. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me ask. During the time in the military, did you, did you get your GED? Did you finish high school in, in the military? Mr. Calderon: Yes, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you start college in the military? Mr. Calderon: Right. I started in the Philippines, as a matter of fact, working on the GED. But it wasn't until I came back that, that I was able to, to take the test and pass it. So, from that point, became a, a payroll clerk, and then, later was a personnel clerk, then a personnel specialist, and then, a personnel superintendent. And that, that’s what I was into when I retired. So from the Philippines, like I said, I came back to Waco, from Waco to San Antonio, no from Waco to San Marcos. We opened the base in San Marcos. Went back to Waco, from Waco to San Antonio, and then, from San Antonio to Spain, back to Waco, and Waco is where I retired from the Air Force after twenty years and six days. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, tell me some more about the political activities in Waco that you all were involved in before we moved to Austin here in ‘76. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. In, in Waco, there was, there was kind of what they called a, a coalition. There was the Chicano community, the Black community, and the white liberals. No. Labor and the white liberals. And what we did was, was tried to sponsor candidates or endorse candidates and work with candidates that, that were, that espoused, you know, the, what they call the liberal agenda which was, you know, things that were, that were, were responsive to the community needs. We never really advocated for a Chicano candidate. It just didn't occur to us and, and I guess you really had to know, you know, the environment that we grew up in. I mean, we just assumed that when somebody talked about something that was responsive for the community that we were included in that. We were part of the community. I mean, it was not even that from the word go, you know. And, and the, you know, the things, the meetings that you read about in the smoke filled rooms, we were part of that. But what we were doing, I mean, what was happening was that we were being used and this is what, what came out of the Vidal de Leon campaign. As, as a campaign manager, we’d develop strategies and that kind of stuff and thought we had Labor’s support. We thought we had the independent Liberal’s support. But when, after the election we got to looking at the results. South Waco supported Vidal. That was where most of the, the Chicano community was. East Waco supported Vidal. That was where most of the Black community was. North and West Waco didn't support Vidal. You know, so immediately we started kicking ourselves in the butt. We just didn't get our people out to vote. We just, you know, started knocking ourselves until we sat down and started going over it precinct by precinct, the results. In some precincts Vidal got two votes and that was probably some lonely Chicano that lived in that precinct. You know, so what we decided was that we were being used. We were being used because labor didn't support us, the independent liberal didn’t support us, and Vidal was a, was a pretty good candidate. There, there were probably people that would have been better candidates, but he was, he was OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, was he the first one? Mr. Calderon: Uh no. Domingo Capetillo had run for the, for the city council before Vidal. Dr. Gutiérrez: When was that? Mr. Calderon: It had to be about four years before that, so this would have been probably around ‘68, ‘66, something like that. Dr. Gutiérrez: Which one? Capetillo or. . . Mr. Calderon: Capetillo, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Capetillo. Mr. Calderon: Because Vidal, it was around ‘71. It was at the time that the Raza Unida movement was, was getting started. But we got to looking at that and said hell, it’s not our fault. It’s the gringo’s fault. That’s why we lost the election. They didn't support us. You know, so that, it, it was after that, backing up a little bit. I had been approached by a guy by the name of Joe Gonzales out of Ft. Worth, at least I think that’s what his name was. But, he approached me about being the candidate for governor for Raza Unida and, and I don't know what brought that about. I mean, it, it came as a complete surprise to me because I was just dumbfounded and I mean, I really squirmed when he, he asked me about that. And I said, "Look, I, I can’t do that. I mean, I'm active in Vidal de Leon’s campaign and I can’t see announcing for, for Raza Unida when, whenever, you know, when I'm, I'm campaign manager for Vidal because that might hurt his chances. " Because a lot of people saw Raza Unida as a negative force at that point. And, and I did to some extent, but not to the extent that some people did. So I, I said, "No. But there is a guy you need to talk to and that’s Ramsey Muniz. He works for Model Cities. He’s got a law degree. He’s active in the community. " And pa’ ya y pa’ aca. (And this and that.) Apparently he or somebody talked to Ramsey because Ramsey wound up filing for governor and, and I managed to, to squirm out of, out of that. But apparently the, my name had been mentioned and I don't know whether Joe was the one that, that was identified or he took it on himself to, to approach me or not, but anyway. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: So there was contact between Ft. Worth and Waco pretty periodic and regular? Mr. Calderon: Yeah, yeah. Well, it was, it was actually MAYO. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Ah. Mr. Calderon: . . . at, at that point because Raza Unida had not really gotten started in Waco until after this Vidal de Leon campaign. That’s when we saw that we were being used, and that’s when I made the decision to go Raza Unida. So Johnny Garibay, Steve Ortiz, and some of the other guys in MAYO. . . . And I had worked with MAYO before because if you’ll recall, at that time the MAYOs were the radicals in the sense that, that they had long hair and beards and that kind of stuff. So, they could go to city hall and nobody would listen to them. So, what I would do is go to city hall or county courthouse and get information for them and, you know, in that way began working with them. But, but the, the Vidal de Leon is what made me see the light, and that's when I went Raza Unida. Well, the Alliance had developed a pretty good power base by that point because we had our own programs, we had offices, we had equipment, you know, and the works. And, and most of the people that were in the Alliance were sensitive to Raza Unida. So, what happened was that we were able to, to use some of the Alliance resources in, in working with Raza Unida. Fax machines, not fax machines, but thermal fax machines. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: . . . at that point. And later Xerox machines, typewriters, and, and the like. I guess it was shortly after that I was elected the county chair of Raza Unida and, and that’s when the organizing activity began taking place in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you had to gather a lot of signatures and things to get the party on the ballot, no? Did you participate in that? Mr. Calderon: Well, we didn’t, we didn't, let’s see, we held our conventions, a Raza Unida convention, but the, the, the signatures were more for the state office. Dr. Gutiérrez: Right. But that’s how you got the party on the ballot. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And every county was assigned quotas, so I know that you had to do that. Mr. Calderon: Yes, we did. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, do you recall that at all? Mr. Calderon: That was the getting of signatures. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: Oh hell, yes. Sure. Ms. Calderon: Oh gosh, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Can you talk a little bit about that? Mr. Calderon: Sure. Dr. Gutiérrez: Administrative. Mr. Calderon: Well, first, first of all in, in, in working Raza Unida, and again you need to understand the environment in Waco, Texas. Waco has a very conservative Chicano population. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why? Mr. Calderon: I, I guess the, the reason for that is that we were a minority in the true sense. That is, we, we made up about eight percent of the population. And we were products of the same system that the gringo was in the sense that, that we went to the same schools and, and the whole works. So, I guess one of the difference was that, that, that the gringo went through the education process and used it. We went through the educational process and believed it. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And that, that was the difference. So, and, and then, too, a lot of people worried about their jobs. You know, say if I'm out there advocating Raza Unida and, and, and Juan Gonzales has a job at the local glass plant and his supervisor says, a white says to him, "What’s Ernesto talking about? " Juan Gonzales doesn't know a, a thing about what's going on, so he says, "Hell, I don't know. He’s just a, a, he doesn't know what the hell he’s talking about. " You know, to keep from having to argue with his supervisor. And I, I know that’s the case in several cases because we were told about that later on. But I, I don't know. We were just a very docile community up until the time of La Alianza (The Alliance) and Raza Unida. Even LULAC never really raised any hell to the school district and, and that was their reason for being was the education system. Ms. Calderon: I feel that they, that they were aware of politics, but they didn't want to get involved, you know. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Ms. Calderon: So, with my experiences and my husband’s, I mean, I didn't know that much, but I wanted to know more. So, it seems to me like my husband says, you know, they didn't want to jeopardize their, their, their jobs, their children, you know. They have, you know, three or four, their wife’s working and stuff, so I feel that they, that they didn't want to get involved. They were kind of scared of it. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, how did you go about getting all the signatures for Raza Unida? Mr. Calderon: Well, we went, I mean, we’d go to, to the supermarkets and sit out there, get signatures and go door to door. Ms. Calderon: Door to door to door to door. Mr. Calderon: People that we knew and, and that kind of thing. And, and I guess what the real story is a little bit later on, but all, all of this time in, in campaigning for Raza Unida in Waco, it took a lot of work. We’ve had doors slammed in our faces and that kind of thing, but we also had some real dedicated people that, that really worked hard in Raza Unida. Lo que era (Those who were) Roland Arreola, Pete Arvizu, Robert Aguilar, Joe Govea, Frank Sustaita, and I know I'm going to miss some people, but the point I'm making is that there were a lot of dedicated, dedicated people. Not to mention the, the guys with MAYO. Johnny Garibay, Jay Ortiz, and, and then, some of the others that, that, that I can’t remember the names of them. Ms. Calderon: Ernesto Fraga. Mr. Calderon: Ernesto Fraga was, was MAYO, later on, Brown Berets. But we, we did collect a, a good number of signatures and, and we even had, had our own local candidates. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Who were some of them? Mr. Calderon: . . . that, that ran. I, I knew you were going to ask that. Dr. Gutiérrez: You got clippings? Ms. Calderon: Wasn’t it. . . Mr. Calderon: Arreola was one, then a couple of the MAYO members. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, Alma Canales ran for Lieutenant Governor. She was from Waco. Mr. Calderon: Yeah, but, well not at that point. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: She wasn’t from Waco at that point. But I, I'm talking about local offices. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And, and that was about the extent of it. County commissioner and maybe a legislative position was about the only two that, that we filed for. And then, like I say, Ramsey ultimately filed and when he became the, the, the candidate for governor, then one of the major problems that Raza Unida had was to support that candidacy in terms of materials and, and money. So, we started fund raising activities. Dances, tamaladas (tamale sales), bake sales... Ms. Calderon: Raffles. Mr. Calderon: Ruby came up with the idea of, of a ribbon that, that had Ramsey’s name on it, another one that had Raza Unida on it and she was instrumental in getting that done. And what you would do is take a ribbon with a pin and, and tie it to your, to your shirt. We sold those for, what, a quarter? Ms. Calderon: Yes. Mr. Calderon: Something like that. Bumper stickers we sold for a dollar, posters we sold and, and generally got, got the information out through that way. Leonard Montelongo was a local radio announcer. He’s our compadre (sponsor as godparent). We would go to him and buy radio spots. We’d buy five and he would announce ten. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me ask you. Do you recall when the first Spanish language radio program began out here? Mr. Calderon: In Waco? Ms. Calderon: Waco? Dr. Gutiérrez: Uh huh. Mr. Calderon: Oh gosh. This must have been during the, the, the Forties. Ms. Calderon: When I think back, Mr. Calderon: Was it before the war? Ms. Calderon: It was Mr. Calderon: No, it was after the war. Ms. Calderon: We were little and Mama would turn on the radio and. . . Mr. Calderon: Gonzalito Reyes was the first individual to have a radio program in Waco, Spanish speaking program. I have no idea what year that was. It, it had to be, it had to be before World War II. Ms. Calderon: I don't know. Mr. Calderon: Because when they, when he got, when they got back, they were, they were going to school, so it was before. It had to be in the late Thirties. Ms. Calderon: Or maybe Mi Favorito (My Favorite). Mr. Calderon: No, that’s Compadre’s program. Then after Gonzalito Reyes, there was a guy by the name of . . . Ms. Calderon: Jesse. . . . Mr. Calderon: Jesse Avalos. He was a long time DJ there that had the program and then a guy by the name of Hernandez and, and then today it’s Leonard Montelongo who has had that job for over twenty years. Dr. Gutiérrez: So there’s no, that, that has not evolved into owning a radio station. . . Mr. Calderon: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . or TV programs or newspapers and all this other business? Mr. Calderon: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: That comes later? Mr. Calderon: No, that, that, that was later. And to this day, there’s no Chicano that owns a radio station in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, but there is a newspaper. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. What, what they do is buy. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Time. Mr. Calderon: . . . buy time, and then, sell it. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did Fraga begin his newspaper? Mr. Calderon: Well first of all, we had, during MAYO, MAYO had a little barrio newspaper El Gople Aviza . (The Blow Will Let You Know). Dr. Gutiérrez: Who put that together? Mr. Calderon: That was, that was MAYO. Johnny Garibay and, and those guys. I wrote some articles for it as, as did some of the other people, but they are the ones that actually would put it together and get it published. Then subsequent to that Roland Arreola, who was a member of the Alliance, and, and later became Raza Unida, started the Brazos Ambassador. The Brazos Ambassador was. . . . Roland’s background was in journalism, his, his education. So, the newspaper was the true newspaper size and, you know, had all the ads and, and that kind of thing where MAYO was, was more of a smaller newspaper. And then once the Alliance went down the tubes, which is another story, then at some point Fraga put together El Tiempo (The Time) which operates to this day. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, why did the Alliance go down the tubes as you say? Mr. Calderon: When we developed the, the by-laws, Chito Vela and myself worked on putting those by-laws together and they were subsequently approved by the, by the Alliance. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is this Chito Vela from Laredo? Mr. Calderon: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Jose Vela? Mr. Calderon: Right. Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Right. What we wanted to make sure was that it was a community organization. In other words, anyone in the community that could organize a community could come in and take over the Alliance and ultimately that’s what happened. There began some disagreements between people within the Alliance and, and then, that conflict led to an effort to organize the community to overthrow the, the majority membership of the Alliance in, in terms of, you know, who was running the board of directors and that kind of thing. And Pedro Arivzu, Roland Arreola, and I forget some of the others that were involved in this organizing the community. Well, they organized the community and that’s what it was all about. So, eventually they took it over. One of the biggest mistakes was that we didn't stay with the Alliance. We took it personal. So, you know, those of us that, that had worked hard to put it together, OK, ya’ll got it, you run it now. Well, they didn't. And pretty soon the Alliance started losing this program, that program. They started auditing books and found different kinds of things that were going on with either the bookkeeping. It was either not being done or somebody was diverting funds to other areas and that kind of thing. Eventually it just, just petered out. And we had some real good programs. We had a pilot in-home day care program that we started. We had a bilingual center that we started. We had Project C which was addressing the students at risk, the drop out rate. We would talk them into staying in, and then, help them by, by providing them. . . What do you call it? Dr. Gutiérrez: Tutoring? Mr. Calderon: Tutoring. Then, and then, several other programs that and, and several of them were pilot programs that started in Waco. The, the initial funding went right to Waco. So, this program began to go by the wayside little by little. The only one that continues today is the bilingual center and, and it’s now operated now by the LULACs. Dr. Gutiérrez: What happened to the Head Start? Or, or is that part of the problem between Blacks and Browns now that’s fighting controlling? Mr. Calderon: That was, that was part of, part of the problem. Now, as Alliance members and being active in the community, we got appointed to a lot of commissions, boards, committees, and that kind of a thing. The Economic Opportunities Advancement Corporation was the one that operated the, it was a local CAP agency. And we, we became members of that board there where at one point, eight of us that were members of that board. And every meeting was a battle to try to get services to the Chicano community. To make a long story short, we weren’t very successful. Not only was the white using us, but the Blacks were too. Our names were on the list of board of directors and when funding sources saw that then, you know, so well, that community is represented so we’ll fund them. So that came to a head in, in, in the form of a discussion we had at one particular meeting before, an EO, an EEOC meeting. We talked about resigning from the board in force and, and made the decision that’s what we were going to do. So, I was sent to draft a letter of resignation of the eight members, and then, we called a meeting the next week on a Monday to go over the letter, approve it, and, and then, subsequent to that, present it at, at the board. Once the letter had been approved, I called one of the newspaper representatives and told them to be sure and be at this meeting because you’re going to get a story out of this. "Well, what’s the story? " "I can’t tell you. Be there. " "Well, are you sure I’m going to get a story out of this? " I said, "I guarantee it. " So anyway, that Thursday night we went to the meeting and Ramsey was the one that was selected to read the letter of resignation. And the letter of resignation talked about how we had attempted to work within the system. How we had leant our support to the organization. How we were trying to have, how we had tried without, tried without success to get any noticeable success to get services for the Chicano community, and it just went on and on. But, that we finally recognized that we were being used and to continue participating as members of the EEOC was to condone what it was doing. And we certainly don't do that. So, we resigned in force. All eight of us walked out. Dr. Gutiérrez: Was Ramsey a member. . . . Mr. Calderon: Ramsey was a member. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . of the board? Mr. Calderon: He was one of the. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Who, who were some of the other members? Mr. Calderon: Pedro Arvizu, excuse me. Ms. Calderon: Was it Frank Sustaita? I don't remember. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. There, there were, Pedro Arvizu, Rudy Solano, myself, Ms. Calderon: Frank Sustaita. Mr. Calderon: Frank Sustaita. Ms. Calderon: Susan Torres. Mr. Calderon: George Govea. Ms. Calderon: Pete Torres? Mr. Calderon: I don't think so. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, you know, if, if you can come up with their names in a few minutes, you can mention it as you recall. What was the outcome of that? Mr. Calderon: The outcome was that it, it caught, it caught that board completely by surprise. And we had sent a copy, a courtesy copy of the letter of resignation to the Texas Department of Community Affairs. We sent a copy to HUD in Dallas, to the folks in Washington. And the end result was that there was a big investigation of the EEOC. It didn't change anything, but there was a big investigation. And then, subsequent to our resignation, they, they appointed some other Chicanos to the board that were, of course, not as vocal as we were. They, they. . . . And even to this day, that, that, that organization does not serve the, the Mexican American community. It’s primarily Black. And, and then that was about the time that we began saying well, or discussing whether we should run programs or just continue an advocacy role. If we get programs is that going to keep us quiet for fear of losing money? And the end result was that the thought that if we don't have anything now and we get programs and we lose them, what have we lost? We didn't have anything to begin with, so we really haven't lost anything. So we decided to go ahead and, and start running programs. And the Alliance then began filing proposals and began getting funded for our different programs. And I think at one point we had something like two point something million dollars worth of programs which, you know, sounds small based on other areas, but for Waco that was real significant. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s still a lot of money. I don't care where you are. Mr. Calderon: It, it was very significant. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: But, and, and, and the Alliance became, became a force to be reckoned with. We, we had annual banquets where we installed the new officers and we always had a free meal. So we always were able to pack the Sociedad Mutualista Hall or the Waco Missions Hall. We always had our banquets at one of those two. We never went to the convention center and we never went to, you know, the K. C. Hall or anything like that. Everything was kept within the Chicano community. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who would spring for the meal? Did you get sponsors or your budget money or dues or. . . ? Ms. Calderon: Donations. Mr. Calderon: That, that was out of the Alliance budget. Dr. Gutiérrez: But it’s self-generated? Mr. Calderon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, and also donations because one of the things that my wife is a specialist at, specialist at is getting donations. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, with all the volunteer work, everybody owes her favors. Ms. Calderon: But I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have pushed, approached them for that. I mean, that you know, we didn't, not just say come to the point and you know, we need this, we need that. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Ms. Calderon: . . . you know. We need your support and stuff, you know. Mr. Calderon: See one, one of the things that, that, that we learned was you’ve got to communicate with people. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Ms. Calderon: They’re not going to come up to you and say, "Do you need this? Do you need that? " No. You have to go and approach them in a nice way. Dr. Gutiérrez: So when did that Alianza end? Mr. Calderon: I don't know when it actually ended. It, it was probably sometime around 1980, something like that. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: So I think it had a life span of about that. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right then. So, let’s, let’s go back and pick up a piece on the Raza Unida. You are getting the signatures. How did you go get them and, and did you spill out of Waco into other counties all the way down here to, to Austin? I remember that there were reports that of activity in Taylor. . . Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . in, in Lockhart, and Lampasas. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And I, I don't know if that's the right geography. Temple. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. We, well you know, we saw ourselves as organizers for Raza Unida and what, what Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me ask you something. Do you think you can talk about that by yourself? I’ve got to wash my face to, to get the sleep away from here. Mr. Calderon: Sure, sure. Dr. Gutiérrez: Would you? Don't let it be dead space, OK. Mr. Calderon: Sure. Yeah. One, one of the things that, that we did was to, we considered ourselves organizers in the sense that, that we didn't restrict ourselves just to McClennan County. But we traveled from Waco down to Austin, from Waco over to Houston, from Waco over to El Paso, Amarillo, Big Springs, Abilene, Denton, Texas, Dallas, Ft. Worth, all those areas. So, I mean, we went around to all of these areas trying to organize people. But at the start it was primarily the area around Waco which included McClennan County, the county of Gatesville, which is, I think, Lampasas County, Bell County, the Marlin area, and I forget the name of that county. But we would go into small towns and, and, and talk to people about Raza Unida and, and that kind of thing. So we, we began, as, as we spread ourselves out we began, you know, we began to get more and more proficient at making the pitch that the Chicanos should go Raza Unida. Now I say the Chicano even though Raza Unida was open to anyone that wanted to join it as long as they supported the concept of Raza Unida and what it stood for. But I remember that going into these little towns, for example, going into Gatesville to try to put together a Raza Unida organization. One of the first questions that would come out is: We have this sheriff that we need to get rid of. And if we go to Raza Unida, he’s Democrat, if we join Raza Unida, then we can’t vote for this, to get rid of this sheriff. And my response was, "Well, go with Raza Unida, but vote in the Democratic elections, get rid of your sheriff if you can, and if you can’t, then run your own sheriff. Run your own candidate for sheriff. " But that happened in I don't know how many towns, the smaller ones, where people wanted to get rid of the sheriff. As late at 1974, I know of an oriental that was run out of Marlin because she was oriental by the sheriff. No, it was later than ‘74. It had to be around ‘76. But anyway, that was, the organizing took place in, in, I mean, we could talk to an auditorium full of people or we’d talk to a couple of people in house or five or six. The only, the, the thing that we wanted to do was just talk to people about Raza Unida. And that’s the way we got the activity going in and around the Central Texas area. We went to Temple. We got them started. We went to Ft. Hood. Got, got them started at Ft. Hood. And that’s the group that became active in Lampasas. We went to Gatesville. Got that group started. In Marlin, we got that group started. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who is we? Mr. Calderon: We was, it was like Roland Arreola, Pete Arvizu, ourselves, Robert Aguilar, and Ramsey later on. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ramsey was a Johnny-come-lately? Mr. Calderon: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: He wasn’t in there from the beginning. Mr. Calderon: No, no. He wasn’t, he wasn’t. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, Arvizu became real tight with Ramsey, no? Mr. Calderon: Well actually. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Or Ramsey got real tight with Arvizu. Whichever way it went. Mr. Calderon: Well, I think it was, it was Pedro’s commitment to Raza Unida that, that got him tight with Ramsey because Ramsey couldn't speak Spanish. Dr. Gutiérrez: Right. But he couldn't speak, he had a stuttering problem to begin with, no? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. He had a stuttering problem, but he didn't know Spanish that well either. And Pedro is the one that tutored Ramsey to the extent that he became pretty good at, at, you know, making a speech in Spanish. So, that was the reason that, you know, that they were real tight. And Pedro did travel a lot with Ramsey. We did to some extent, but not as much as Pedro did. The first, the first presentation on Raza Unida was made by Chito Vela at a LULAC rally. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, what's he doing here? Was he, did he go to law school here? Mr. Calderon: No. Chito went to Waco to work with the Model Cities program. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ah. OK. Was he already a lawyer? Mr. Calderon: No. No. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: This was before he, he, he became a lawyer. When Chito left, I think he came to Austin from there, and then, from Austin went to law school in Houston. Ms. Calderon: Yeah, he did. Mr. Calderon: But when he, when Chito left, Ramsey was his replacement. And that's how Ramsey wound up in Waco. Well, Ramsey was going to Baylor. I’m sorry. Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s correct. Mr. Calderon: Was going to Baylor University. Dr. Gutiérrez: Graduated and finished, and then, he just took a job, I guess. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. And, and. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Waiting to pass the bar or something. Mr. Calderon: Right. And during the height of our Raza Unida activity, people thought that Ruby was Ramsey’s wife because she was always at these meetings that Ramsey was at. Abby was not there. And, and I don't know whether Abby was late in getting an interest or whether she heard about Ruby being looked at as his wife or not pero (but) then, then Abby started getting active. Dr. Gutiérrez: Thank you, Ruby. Mr. Calderon: I don't think. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, we got two for one here. Ms. Calderon: I think, I think, I think she was in school or going to school or something like that. I, I. . . Mr. Calderon: No, she, she. . . Ms. Calderon: . . . believe. . . Mr. Calderon: . . . worked for the school district. She. . . Ms. Calderon: Oh, OK. Mr. Calderon: . . . she already had her degree. Ms. Calderon: Oh, OK. Mr. Calderon: She worked at a bilingual program. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Ms. Calderon: And I think this is, well, later on in the Seventies before she got more involved. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Any, anyway Dr. Gutiérrez: So you are going around organizing and. . . Mr. Calderon: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . and do you remember who some of the people are in these other places? The names? Like you said you went to Marlin, you went to Gatesville, you went to. . . Ms. Calderon: The one in Gatesville is Janey. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: That’s Gatesville? Ms. Calderon: Yeah. She was a good supporter. Dr. Gutiérrez: Janey what? Ms. Calderon: I don't remember her name. Mr. Calderon: Jane. Ms. Calderon: Ortega. Mr. Calderon: Ortega. Ms. Calderon: Ortega. OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: She and her husband. Ms. Calderon: And she, she would, OK, you know where they would have the meetings? Where the bank people would have their meetings. I don't know how she got into it. Probably like me, you know. And every time we’d go to a meeting there, it would be at the bank, a receptionist. . . What do you call it? That. . . Mr. Calderon: The bank meeting room. Ms. Calderon: The bank, bank meeting room. Yeah, Janey Ortega, oh, she was a good supporter. She got everybody involved. Everybody. The whole family. And every time, you know, and, and, and when we needed her, she was there for fund raisers, whatever. Everything. And then, in Temple was Judy. . . . Mr. Calderon: Judy. Ms. Calderon: At the time it was Judy. Mr. Calderon: Gosh. There, there was a Martinez, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy. I don't remember her last name. Ms. Calderon: Judy. Mr. Calderon: She worked for MHMR [Mental Health and Mental Retardation] in Temple, but she was the, the mover in Bell County. Ms. Calderon: Yeah. Uh huh. Mr. Calderon: Then in, in, in Bryan, we had Joe Bernal. Ms. Calderon: Oh yes. Oh, he was a good supporter. Mr. Calderon: Joe, Joe Bernal, I mean, that was his name. And, and what we did in the Central Texas area is came out with, with: One of the Brazos Ambassadors, Bernal Endorses Raza Unida. And, and it was true. Joe Bernal endorsed Raza Unida. And we got flack from Joe Bernal in San Antonio for that, but we told him hey, this guy’s in Bryan, his name is Joe Bernal, you know. And he did in fact endorse Raza Unida, so you know, get lost. Ms. Calderon: What was the one, outside. . . Mr. Calderon: In Cameron? I mean, we went to Cameron. I don't remember the name. Dr. Gutiérrez: Down all the way in the Valley? Mr. Calderon: No, no. This was Ms. Calderon: Cameron, Texas. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, Cameron, Texas. Not Cameron County? Ms. Calderon: Oh no. Mr. Calderon: No, our organizing was limited to the Austin pa’ ‘riba (and up). Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And then, over to Houston, and then, across to El Paso. I mean, we actually made, made trips out in those areas. Dr. Gutiérrez: To El Paso? Ms. Calderon: Tell, tell him about your brother that flew on a plane with Ramsey. Mr. Calderon: As you well know, one of our problems is money. We can’t get money for political campaigns. My brother, at the time, was, was taking flying lessons. And we thought it’d be a good idea to fly Ramsey to Crystal City. So, I asked my brother, you know, if he would fly Ramsey to Crystal City and he said, "Sure. " So anyway, they got on the plane in MacGregor and took off. They landed and unfortunately they landed at the wrong place. They landed in, landed in Eagle Pass. Dr. Gutiérrez: I didn't know this story. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. They landed in Eagle Pass and because his navigation was the highways. You know, that’s the way he. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh. Mr. Calderon: So, there were no maps. Dr. Gutiérrez: God Almighty. No radio contact. Mr. Calderon: So, from there they flew into Crystal City. Well, apparently there was a rally or something in Crystal City and, of course, now Ramsey could say I just flew in. Dr. Gutiérrez: Eagle Pass had no idea. Mr. Calderon: He says I've got my pilot over here and then Tino, introduced Tino and that kind of thing. As, as far as I know, that, that might be the first time that Ramsey flew from one location to another. But we could not Dr. Gutiérrez: But that was the gubernatorial race. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: ‘72 or ‘74? Ms. Calderon: ‘72. Mr. Calderon: ‘72. Dr. Gutiérrez: ‘72. Mr. Calderon: ‘72, yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: You all didn't, OK. Mr. Calderon: So we could now say Ramsey flew, you know. Ms. Calderon: Yeah. Or he could say. But anyway, that, that was a little, a little side story. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now what, why did you all decide to become Raza Unida? This, this, the large group of people that had been very involved in LULAC, been involved in Mexican American Alliance, have been with the Mutualistas. . . Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . and, and other kinds of activities, Democrats. I mean, what, what was it. . . Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . that made you do this? Mr. Calderon: You, you’ve got to realize that, that, that the, this core was really, they were really good advocates for the Chicano community. And we saw where we just weren’t getting our due. And I mean, we tried to work within the system, the Democratic party. That didn't work. We tried to work within EEOC. That didn't work. So then we started delivering our own programs to the community. That worked. And we saw where, you know, the, the political clout is what really counted. Through the Alliance we were able to, you know, to get big crowds and at these crowds we could, you know, get on the case of, you know, the city council, the, the thing because we would invite not only community people, but politicians as well. We wanted them there. For example, there was a, a case where we demonstrated against the Catholic Church when they were moving Lonnie out of Waco. Lonnie Ms. Calderon: Reyes. Mr. Calderon: Reyes. Dr. Gutiérrez: Was that just a, a, a new assignment or was there something going on with Lonnie who was active with you all. . . Mr. Calderon: Yeah. He was active. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . and protesting and it seems like punishment? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. Because he was at the Silk Stocking Church, you know, where the, the, the white affluent people went and a few Chicano wannabes. Dr. Gutiérrez: So the churches were segregated in Waco? Mr. Calderon: Sure. Dr. Gutiérrez: The Catholic ones? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. I, I mean. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Even the Baptists? Mr. Calderon: . . . whether, whether by design or. . . Ms. Calderon: Not that I know of. Mr. Calderon: Well, yeah. The Baptists because there is a Mexican Baptist Church. Dr. Gutiérrez: There is yeah. Ms. Calderon: Well yeah. Mr. Calderon: But, you know, there were those that, that do belong to, to other churches, but actually in the minority. But what happened was that, that Lonnie was real active with the Alliance and also with MAYO. He worked real closely with, with youth. Went out to the country and, and gave Mass in the country, countryside and that kind of thing and they didn't like what he was doing in the community. They didn't like what he was saying from the pulpit, so some of the money people started asserting pressure on the Bishop and, and the Bishop then, because of that pressure, said he was going to, to move the, Lonnie. So when that was announced a delegation came up and talked to the Bishop. That delegation included Pete Arvizu, included Charlie Gonzales, it included. . . Ms. Calderon: Jesse Torres. Mr. Calderon: Jesse Torres. It included, who else? There was about five people that, that, that included. So they came up and talked to him and by this time the Bishop was kind of senile and while he probably understood what he, what was being said, he didn't, didn't really get the impact of what he was doing. But his assistant did see it. He says, "I’ll talk to the Bishop. " Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was the assistant? Mr. Calderon: I don't remember his name. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was the Bishop? Mr. Calderon: The Bishop was Reicher. Bishop Reicher. Dr. Gutiérrez: R-I-K-E-R? Mr. Calderon: R-E-I-C-H-E-R. Reicher. I don't remember his first name, but it, it, at that point he was about seventy something years old. So, anyway, there was an announcement that he was leaving Waco. A couple of weeks later here comes the orders. Lonnie is going out of Waco. Well, these guys that had come up and talked to him, eran Cursillistas . (they were Course attendees) [a seminar-type of intensive training program in the Catholic church]. I mean, they were the lay church people. They were devoted to the Catholic Church. They worked a, a lot for the church and you know, so that was devastating to them. The Bishop had given them his word he was going to leave, leave Lonnie in Waco, you know. I mean, that really changed their outlook because their position was that if you can’t trust the Bishop, who the hell can you trust? You know, so they were very disillusioned with the Church after that. So anyway, to make a long story short, MAYO and the Alliance started talking about a demonstration. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, the MAYO are, I can assume, are very young guys? Mr. Calderon: Yes, yes. Teenagers. Dr. Gutiérrez: And, and they’re able to, to access you older guys and, and Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: have a relationship? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: That was no problem there? Mr. Calderon: Well, at the beginning it was because like I say, ours is a very conservative community. They had this long hair and long haired people just, you know, weren’t cool for us. But, you know, eventually we came around. And, and as, you know, I guess Ramsey was one of the first to start working with them, then I started working with them in, in the sense that we became a resource for them. And then, pretty soon we started working, actually attending the meetings and that kind of thing, you know. So yeah, eventually they did have access, and then, ultimately they had representation at the Alliance. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me ask this quick question. What was the role of Baylor University in all, all of these things you’ve been talking about? Were there employees out of Baylor that could help or, or were there employees out of Baylor or Mexican Americans who, who refused to cooperate being very conservative and Baptist? What was the role? Mr. Calderon: Baylor University, in, in terms of the Chicano community, had no role. It, it didn't do anything for the Chicano community. The number of people that worked at Baylor University you could count on one hand and generally they were gardeners. The highest paid person at Baylor University, as far as I know, worked at the print shop, you know. So he had, you know, access to all of this, this equipment because Baylor had this big old press and all that. And we approached him about becoming Raza Unida and he did. So, we had access to their typesetting machines and you know, that kind of thing. But that, that’s the only extent that Baylor had anything to do with the community and that was unbeknownst to them. We petitioned Baylor to bring in speakers. Cesar Chavez. Baylor would never agree to bring Cesar Chavez in because he was too radical. They didn't know whether he was, what’s when you’re, when you’re making a speech, they didn't know whether he was good enough to, to make a proper presentation and just all kinds of stuff and on the tail end of that, they invite Jesse Jackson. So, Jesse Jackson comes in as a speaker and, and Cesar Chavez was, was a pussycat compared to Jesse Jackson in terms of, of, you know, how he would have addressed that university. Cesar would have been a lot more diplomatic than was Jesse Jackson. But even after that we couldn’t get him to, into Baylor University and, and, of course, there was a, a good fee to come in and talk to the student forum. There was a, a, it was a substantial fee. Anyway, we never got Cesar Chavez. The first one that we managed to get to come into Baylor was a gentleman by the name of Paredes. Ms. Calderon: Carlos. Mr. Calderon: Carlos Paredes. And he was a Baptist preacher. And in his presentation he says Viva Baylor University, Viva Waco and no dijo nada de la comunidad, (didn’t say anything about the community,) Chicano community. His presentation in effect said there are no problems. He was from, from El Paso. He was from an affluent family and you know, so his presentation did more damage than anything else in the history of Baylor University. Well, after the student forum you could meet with the speaker over at the student center in one of the rooms. And when, when we found out about that, I mean, we headed right for Baylor University. We, we left our jobs and headed for Baylor University to meet with Carlos Paredes. And I was the first one to jump on his case. "You have set us back ten years in this community. " He had originally baptized us here in Austin. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh, so you knew him? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. We knew him. Y le digo, (And I tell him), "I'm ashamed to say that you are the person that baptized us. " And I mean, we just raked him over the coals. Dr. Gutiérrez: What did the poor man say? Mr. Calderon: What could he say? I didn't know... Dr. Gutiérrez: I didn't mean to. Mr. Calderon: I didn't know that, that, you know, he pleaded ignorance. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: And, you know, it, it did set us back. And we raised hell with Baylor University about that. So, the next one we’re, we’re able to bring in was Bishop Flores. Dr. Gutiérrez: Let me stop this for a moment because I've got to change tapes. Tape two. October 25th, 1997. We are in Austin interviewing Ernesto and Ruby Calderon. Mr. Calderon: And Dr. Gutiérrez: So Bishop Flores, he’s Catholic. Mr. Calderon: Yeah, he’s Catholic. And, but he makes a presentation at the student forum and, and he tells it, you know, like it is. At least to the extent that, that he saw it, you know. So his, his presentation was more to our liking in terms of, you know, bringing to light the problems that, that the Chicano faced in education and judicial system and you know, the whole nine yards. So his presentation was OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I got you off track in a way, but it’s good that you told me about all the organizing in the area. What was the impact of Raza Unida in this area? Did you run candidates; did you elect anybody; how long did it last; and who were the, the main protagonist, officers? Did you all make a difference? Mr. Calderon: I, I think we made a difference because what we, what we began to show was how many votes we could, we could garner. And, and that began to develop with our, our participation in the Democratic party. So at one point we could probably get about fifteen percent of the vote in Waco even though we were only about between eight and ten percent of the population in Waco, you know. So, in effect, what that’s saying is that our people were voting in greater numbers, you know, on, on a percentage basis than, than other groups were. And, and that was a, that took a lot, a lot of educating because there were two things that you didn't talk about in Waco. One was politics, the other was religion. And that’s probably true, true in a lot of other communities. But we got people to talking politics and, and that’s what began generating the interest, interest in participating in the election process. The, the escapade with the Catholic Church got us to talking religion, you know. So, the two subjects that were, that were No-No’s, was now out in the forefront, you know. So, and, and all of these things were reported, not in the, the, the, the establishment newspaper, but primarily in the El Golpe Aviza and the Brazos Ambassador and later in El Tiempo. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, how long did El Golpe Aviza last and, and the Brazos Ambassador? Mr. Calderon: El Golpe Aviza, I think, lasted until about ‘75, something like that. That’s about the time that, that the Ambassador was developed and it lasted two or three years. Dr. Gutiérrez: Did someone at least put them in the library? Is there collections of these, these newspapers somewhere? Mr. Calderon: I don't know whether the publishers ever did that or not. I, I have a lot of issues, but I don't have a complete, I don't have every issue. You know, so I don't know whether they did or not. I don't know. Dr. Gutiérrez: If the collection that you have can be microfilmed, are you willing to, to, take it to be microfilmed? Mr. Calderon: Sure. I mean, it, it would take some, some work to, you know, because I’ve got them in different places. But yeah, yeah, that’s no problem. And El Golpe Aviza is especially, I've got more of that than, than anything else. Dr. Gutiérrez: Maybe you can ask Baylor. Mr. Calderon: To do what? Dr. Gutiérrez: To copy it for us. That way we can exchange and they get a copy and then we get another copy. Mr. Calderon: Well, I don't think MAYO ever wrote, well, I shouldn't say that because I, I don't know. I really don't know if there’s a master file anywhere. I, I would guess that even, even Fraga doesn't have all the issues he’s published. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, when did he start and where did he come from? Mr. Calderon: Fraga is a native Wacoan, but he had moved to Austin and, and became active with the Brown Berets in Austin, and then, moved back to Waco and started a Brown Beret unit in Waco. And, and then, subsequent to the Brazos Ambassador, he started El Tiempo. So, so his activity was, well, he was a Junior LULAC, as well. I mean, he goes back that far. And it was after that that he moved to Austin, but he was, he was active primarily with the Brown Berets. I think he came to some Alliance meetings, but, but not very many. Not very many. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So getting back to the larger question. The impact of Raza Unida? Mr. Calderon: It, it served to, to educate people in Waco. It was, it was a very positive force. It was an education that, that taught us to, to participate in the political process if we wanted to bring about change. It, it taught us we needed to educate our kids because I mean that, that’s one of the things that, you know, that helps you, you move. You still have that wall once you get to a certain point, but it, it was a very positive influence. Education in terms of the community, education in terms of the participants because we got to know that election code up one side and down the other. I’ve forgotten most of it, but, but at that time I mean, we could almost recite it from memory, you know. So it, it impacted in the sense that it opened up the Democratic party as well. Dr. Gutiérrez: How so? Mr. Calderon: In the sense that, that it, it became more accessible to Chicanos. We began to be appointed to, you know, higher positions of leadership in, in the Democratic party. On a statewide basis, that, that’s very true. A lot of the people that, that were in Raza Unida cut their teeth in Raza Unida and later became Democrats. A lot of them are holding elected office today. If, if you ask me who are some of them, I don't know that I could name one right now, pero (but) Irma was one. Dr. Gutiérrez: Irma? Mr. Calderon: Rangel. Oh shoot. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: She was involved with Raza Unida somewhere? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Where? Mr. Calderon: San Antonio, I think. I think. I, I believe, I believe she’s the one because she talked about that at, at one point. I, I don't know. I just, I just saw Raza Unida as a very positive influence and, and mostly because it really taught us the art of politics. It, it also taught us a lot about our heritage because we would go to conferences and there was always a presentation on some aspect of our history, of our heritage or our culture, that kind of a thing. It, it really opened my eyes. And, later on, when I had started working at Juarez Lincoln University, I mean, that’s, that’s when the, the Chicano world became visible. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, let’s finish the Raza Unida so we can get over to Juarez Lincoln because you, you left, when you left in ‘76, what were you leaving? What was the state of Chicano politics in, in this region, in this area as you left where you had been all your life and were moving to, to the capital? Mr. Calderon: Waco, as, as you recall, the Alliance had, had got, become, it had gotten under new leadership. So we weren't involved with the Alliance anymore and the thing that, that I decided was that I needed to move. Not because of the Alliance or anything like that, but because of my family. Ruby was very attached to her mother and I knew there would come a day when she would lose her mother and I wanted to begin weaning her from, from that, that environment and Robert Aguilar became the head of, of programs at Juarez Lincoln University. He was the executive director at, of the Alliance and a job as editor came open and he called me and asked me if I would be interested in it. And I told him I would. So, I made a unilateral decision to accept the job. Went home and told the family and took all kinds of flack for having to decided to accept that job. Accept it we did. And moved the family to Austin. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, I want to get you to Austin real quick. There’s some very important questions I've got to ask you. Mr. Calderon: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you all carry out Ramsey’s campaign in ‘72 for governor and how did you help Alma Canales for Lieutenant Governor in Waco in this area? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. There was a hell of a lot of work involved in this. And, and I don't know whether people understand how much came out of Waco in terms of, of work for Raza Unida. We got a headquarters building on 13th and Clay. It was diagonally across the street from the Waco Boy’s Club. And the first thing we did and I don't remember who got the building, but the first thing we did was, was paint the Raza Unida logo, the Aztec warrior with the, the eagle head on it, and then, the feathers coming down, and then, Raza Unida Headquarters, very prominent. We got a phone installed. And the phone was more difficult to maintain than was the headquarters because at the outset people would come in and use the phone for long distance calls and it had nothing to do with Raza Unida. So, we had to put a, a halt to that. So, Ramsey was, and, and a couple of us were the only ones authorized to make long distance calls unless one of us approved someone else making the call. But Ramsey would come into Waco and hell, he was on the phone all day talking to people, not only all over the state, but all over the country. Dr. Gutiérrez: It’s OK. It’s OK. Mr. Calderon: So our phone bill averaged around five hundred dollars a month. In those days, five hundred dollars was a hell of a, of a lot of money. So our fund raising activity became one of primarily paying that phone bill because without the phone, I mean, we would be lost. Ramsey would be lost. But like I said, we would sponsor dances that would raise money. We had people that would contribute to us. There was one gentleman, curandero (healer), by the name of Jose Arias, that says, "I'll donate twenty dollars a week to you. The only thing I ask is that you come pick it up. " Every week we’d go there and pick up the twenty dollars and you know, at one whack, that wasn't a lot, but when you add that over the period of in excess of a year, he donated a lot of money to Raza Unida. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he kept this up for over a year? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and probably quit because we quit going. Dr. Gutiérrez: Bah! Mr. Calderon: You know. But I mean, it was, it was that, that kind of a commitment that we got from people that, that were interested in Raza Unida. Someone had gotten a hold of a silk screening machine and we started producing bumper stickers and posters and, and I mean, those went statewide as far as I know. Ms. Calderon: Here is a little one. . . . Mr. Calderon: Not, not only to the local area, but. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Did you all sell. . . ? Mr. Calderon: Those, those were the ribbons that we were talking about. Ms. Calderon: All this was donated. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Hold it still because I'm going to zoom in and can you raise it a little higher? There we go. Ms. Calderon: Did you get them? Dr. Gutiérrez: I got them. Ms. Calderon: Are they right? Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. I got them. Ms. Calderon: OK. All of this was donated through Vidal de Leon, where he worked. He donated the, the ribbon, and so, the, the lettering was done there right on Clay. And did you tell him you guys went to get the printing or something in Dallas? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Again, I don't remember who made the arrangement, but we got this, this printing press from Dallas, somebody in Dallas. Got a pickup and went to Dallas, picked it up, and brought it down to Waco and that press was going a lot of hours. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who was the printer locally that knew about this? Mr. Calderon: Yeah, we, we taught ourselves. Ms. Calderon: Somebody. . . . Mr. Calderon: We taught ourselves. We taught ourselves. I guess.. Dr. Gutiérrez: Without a manual? Mr. Calderon: I, I think somebody. . . Roland knew. Roland knew. Ms. Calderon: We only knew a little bit. Mr. Calderon: Knew a little bit. And he taught Pedro Arvizu, and then, Pedro was, was actually the most of the labor behind the operation of that, of that press. But, anyway, a lot of, a lot of information came out of Waco that way. And, and this was for the ‘72 campaign. After the ‘72 campaign, of course, we let the building go. And for the ‘74 campaign we didn't really have a headquarters because by then we had the Alliance buildings and while that wasn't official, that was really where, you know, things came out of. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the ‘74 campaign differ from the ‘72? Ms. Calderon: Can I interrupt here a little bit? Dr. Gutiérrez: Sure. Ms. Calderon: On the. . . When we had to get donations and fund raisers and stuff, I have to mention this lady because, Carrizales, I forget her first name, es la mama de (she is the mother of) Pauline Carrizales. Anyway, she belonged to the, some, some organization in the Catholic Church at St. Francis. Dr. Gutiérrez: You are talking about the mother? Ms. Calderon: Yeah. La, la mama. (The, the mother.) Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah, the one that can’t find the name right now? Mr. Calderon: La Guadalupana. (The Guadalupe’s) [A Catholic women’s organization.] Ms. Calderon: Everybody, no que no la querian, le decian la entremetida (not that they didn’t like her, they called her the meddler) and all this because she was trying to organize the people from the Church. So anyway, to make a long story short, cuando querian hacer un (when they wanted to do a) fund raiser. We could depend on her because she could get the people from her church. She’d donate cake, anything that had to do with eating, you know. Tortillas, cakes, you know, tamales, whatever, you know. Pero esta senora, (But this lady,) she was the main one at the church. And y no la querian porque andaba entremetida (and they didn’t like her because she would meddle) at first because que esto no mas es pa’ los jovenes, la politica, (this was for the youth, the politics,) at first. All this stuff that, that you weren't supposed to do being a member of this, what, the Guadalupe, La Guadalupana. (Guadalupe, The Guadalupe’s.) Dr. Gutiérrez: Now, did she do that because she was interested or. . . Ms. Calderon: Yes, yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . did you ask her or. . . Ms. Calderon: No, no, no, no. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . because you all were doing this for Ramsey? Ms. Calderon: She, she got interested in it, you know, through her daughter, Pauline. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ah. OK. Ms. Calderon: So, este, su mama. (ah, her mother.) We could depend on her for anything of, of cooking. So, she would volunteer the ladies whether they wanted to or not y que (and that), you know, for Ramsey, the politica, (politics), you know. She kind of got into their case about not trying to be involved. You know, this is not just for the young people. It’s for everybody, you know, in Waco. So, and then, Ramsey Muniz was, you know, he could talk to anybody, you know. Everybody loved him so much. So anyway, I have to say about that that she was, you know, she, she, we could depend on her in anything. So we loved her, we loved her. Dr. Gutiérrez: When did Abby start getting really involved? Ms. Calderon: I think it was mostly in ‘74 or late ‘72. Mr. Calderon: No, no. It, later, well, about midway into the ‘72 campaign. Ms. Calderon: I guess so. Something like that. Mr. Calderon: She began going to, you know, with Ramsey. Ms. Calderon: I didn't even know, I didn’t even know Abby. I, I, we hadn't met her. We had just heard of her and you know, that’s about it pero (but)... Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So how did that ‘74 differ from ‘72? Different headquarters, different group, a new structure. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Alliance. Mr. Calderon: By ‘74 it was, it was really different in the sense that we knew Ramsey was into drugs. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you know that? Mr. Calderon: Through the people in, in Waco that had the Abraxax. Dr. Gutiérrez: Had the what? Mr. Calderon: Abraxax. It was a night club. Ms. Calderon: Breakfast club. Dr. Gutiérrez: How do you spell that Abraxax? Mr. Calderon: A-B-R-A-X-A-X. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And it was a night club that, that it was started by a group of, of young Chicanos, and at some point, they got into the, the drug business primarily. Johnny Garibay was eventually hired by the Abraxax and whoever it was that was, that was bringing the drugs into Waco got Johnny involved in it. Later Johnny became known as Dr. Joy. And, and I've interviewed Johnny and I've got him on tape, so, you know, and, and he’s talked about all of this stuff. I mean, that’s why I'm not reluctant to, to talk about it now. I, I don't know exactly how it was that we found out, but on one particular weekend, Ramsey was very remorse. He was reclusive and we, he made contact with us. We invited him to go to the lake, he and Abby. And we just sat out there at the lake and, you know, with chairs facing the water and just talked for about two or three hours. Different things. Never about drugs, but by this time we had an idea that, we had our suspicions that reason he was involved in that. And I suspect that’s about the time that they started really investigating him. You know, so our approach was still the same in terms of the politicking, but in terms of Ramsey, it was a little bit different in that we weren’t as committed to Ramsey as we were to the cause. We were more committed to the reason for Ramsey’s candidacy and the reason for Raza Unida as opposed to being committed to the individual. In the past it had been a combination of all of that plus commitment to the individual because when you get right down to it, Ramsey and I really didn't get along that great. And it had to do more with the, the work with Model Cities and some of the community meetings that were being held around town. There was a, I mean, we had our cliqas tambien. (cliques also.) And, and I would go to these meetings and I was seen as an outsider and I would, I would make my opinions known. And at one point Ramsey disagreed with what I was saying. And I said, "Well, I mean, if you talk about the community, I mean, I'm a member of the community and I'm here to express my opinions. And if you don't like that, well, that’s like saying we don't want community people in here. " And to make a long story short, he invited me outside. And I said, "Well, let’s go. " And he backed down. I’m glad he did because he probably would have left me crippled or something. Pero (But) I mean, even notwithstanding that, by that point I had learned to, not to take things so personal. And, and so, in the ‘74 campaign our activity was just as great, but it was more for the total cause than, than for Ramsey. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did you all help Alma Canales? And had she moved up to Waco by then? Mr. Calderon: No. Alma, I think she, she moved to Waco, I think it was after the ‘74 campaign. It might have been before. No me acuerdo. (I don’t remember.) But we really didn't work for Alma Canales. To begin with, I didn't think she was a very good candidate. I mean, she’s a friend of ours. . . And, and I've said this more than once at different places, but I felt like we could have done better, had a better candidate for the Lieutenant Governor. And, as far as, I know, she never really did that much politicking, you know, in terms of, of trying to raise interest and that kind of a thing. I remember at the San Antonio convention there was some talk about getting another candidate or at least dressing up a little bit. And she says, "You take me like I am or you don't take me at all. " Words to that effect. I can appreciate that, but I mean, that's not the way you get votes, you know. And we knew that much about politics. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did the women feel about all of that Ruby? Ms. Calderon: They much, didn't say too much about it. Like I say, there weren’t too many women involved like my husband and I as a couple, you know. Like when we had the, the, every, everybody that would want to volunteer, I would try to get people to volunteer at the headquarters where we were at, so it was Beatriz Hurtado. This was after I had la nina (the baby girl), and my mother would get after me. Because she would say, "I thought you would, " you know, "quit this politicking ya que tienes la nina. (now that you have the baby girl.) But you take la nina (the baby girl) here and there. " We had her little, what do you call it, crib that we’d take and, and put it, you know, at, at the, where we would, we were doing the, the work, you know. So anyway, like I say, I don't remember, well OK, I can say Lucy. Lucy Sustaita, she was, you know, kind of, you know, we were all dumb. Like I say, I would say that because I didn't know nothing about politicking until. . . I, I had learned a lot from my husband, and then, the experience door to door and stuff. Pero (But) like I say, there was not that many people, you know. I mean, women involved. And nobody knew about, you know, Alma, unless they, you know, she, we would have a rally or something and you know, they’d present her and sometimes she talked and I don't know. We just, you know, a lot of the women that I, that I knew that were involved in Raza Unida, you know, they weren’t, they, they never. . . Como que (Like that) they didn't care or they, they didn't know nothing about it like I did. So, why get involved? Or if, if they went to the rally because she was there si o no. (yes or no.) But she wouldn’t go out and talk to the people as now that I know that the politician would, you know. Because, you know, hand you a little card and I need your support and this and that. She wouldn’t do that. So, we just knew her around and I don't even know how we met her, but she’d come to the headquart, our headquarters and you know, use the phone and stuff and you know, just Dr. Gutiérrez: How about the Ms. Calderon: hang around for, for information, I guess. Dr. Gutiérrez: Flores Amaya the U. S. Senate and, and, and. . . Mr. Calderon: Fred Garza. Dr. Gutiérrez: Fred Garza for Railroad Commissioner. And did you all work with them and campaign with them? Mr. Calderon: Well, we were working for Raza Unida and that was the Raza Unida ticket. You know, even though most of the activity was directed to Ramsey, there was the, the, the Raza Unida effort ticket. I’m trying to remember whether there was anything that we ever received promoting Raza Unida, Alma Canales for Lieutenant Governor. I don't remember anything. Ms. Calderon: I don't remember. I don't remember. Mr. Calderon: And we didn't publish anything. There was some stuff that came out of that for Flores. There was some stuff that came out for Fred. And who was the other one? Ms. Calderon: I don't remember. Mr. Calderon: There was another statewide candidate. Board of Education? Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, those are not statewide, but those are by districts. Mr. Calderon: OK. Dr. Gutiérrez: And there were some people that ran in different places, but in fact that’s what Ramsey filed for when he went to file earlier in the day, the day that he ended up leaving having filed for governor. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Ms. Calderon: Ohhh. Dr. Gutiérrez: But he went down to file as, as a candidate for state board. . . Mr. Calderon: Right. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . of education. Mr. Calderon: You know, it was, which, which leads me to a point. There, there’s a, there’s a book that was published out of Arizona. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah, United We Win. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ignacio Garcia. Mr. Calderon: Ignacio Garcia in that said that Mario Compean called me to get somebody to run for Raza Unida or show up at the secretary of state’s office in a suit and sign up as a candidate for the governor. Ram, Mario never talked to me about Raza Unida. Mario never did that. And, and besides, I mean, I didn't allow myself to be talked to that way in the military much less by a party official. You know, so just by way of setting the record straight, it was. . . And, and I'm not even positive about the name, Joe Gonzales out of Ft. Worth that approached me. Dr. Gutiérrez: Called you? Mr. Calderon: Came in and talked to me. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh. Mr. Calderon: To Waco. Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And suggesting that you run for something. Ms. Calderon: For, for governor. Dr. Gutiérrez: For governor? Mr. Calderon: The governor, yeah. And, and I recommended to him, Ramsey. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why didn't you want to do it? Mr. Calderon: Chicken. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: I mean, la mera verdad. (the real truth.) Dr. Gutiérrez: No. Mr. Calderon: Chicken. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: You know, it, it’s having been involved in politics, I knew that that was going to require a lot of work and hell, I'd worked with Al, Albert Fuentes in, in San Antonio when he ran for Lieutenant Governor and traveled with him for the summer. Dr. Gutiérrez: Now how did you get down there for that? That’s a missing chapter here. Mr. Calderon: Well, he was, he was a candidate for Lieutenant Governor. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yes. Mr. Calderon: And we were members of PASO and he came to our PASO convention. We had one in. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: That was back in ‘62. You said you went to San Antonio. Mr. Calderon: I traveled. I traveled. Dr. Gutiérrez: You traveled, OK. Mr. Calderon: I traveled with him, you know. So, the point I'm trying to make is that, that we had the political knowledge by then. Dr. Gutiérrez: So, it was more than just chicken. It was too much money, too much time, too much effort. Ms. Calderon: Time really. Mr. Calderon: A whole lot of time away from the family. Dr. Gutiérrez: Sure. Absolutely. Mr. Calderon: I, I didn't know whether I was ready for that or not. Dr. Gutiérrez: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Well, how devastating was the Flores Amaya indictment and, and, and plea when, when he was charged and found guilty of drugs? Mr. Calderon: Well, you know, the first thing we, we began talking about is it’s politically motivated. But you know, when, when you get the real low down and you know what’s taking place, then I don't know. Even with Ramsey in, in, in the beginning people were saying that it was politically motivated and that kind of thing. Ms. Calderon: That he was set up. Mr. Calderon: And that he was set up and that kind of stuff. I mean, we knew better. And you know, if, if, to me, it was really a blow against La Razaa that those guys would get into that stuff. Not so much that they would get into it, I guess, mostly that they got caught and. . . Ms. Calderon: The people in Waco didn't accept that. They didn't accept that at all. Mr. Calderon: I mean, to this day Ms. Calderon: You couldn't tell them wrong. To this day they, they say he was set up. Mr. Calderon: He was set up. Because I mean, I mean, the work that these people did for that campaign was tremendous, and then, to have something like that happen. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well they also knew, well, I was asking about Flores Amaya, but you are talking about Ramsey now. Of course, they knew Ramsey and Abby in a different context. . . Mr. Calderon: Yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . in, in Waco. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: I mean, Mr. America. Ms. Calderon: Yeah. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And didn't even smoke. Ms. Calderon: Little gold star. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, Ms. Calderon: All this. . . . Mr. Calderon: You know, so, I mean to me, I mean, it was a real, a real blow, but still you know, I could get beyond that and look at, look at La Causa, (The Cause,) you know, like we said and, and still continue the work. I know subsequent to that there were, after Ramsey had gotten out the second time, I think, there was a reception here in town for him and we were called and invited to go. We had become real close with Abby and we turned it down because we said if we go to this reception we are supporting Ramsey and slapping Abby in the face. And so, we didn't go. I know one time we were at Abby’s when she was. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Now you are alluding to their divorce, right? Mr. Calderon: No. No. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, how would it be a slap in the face to Abby if you went to Ramsey’s? Mr. Calderon: Well I guess it was after, after their divorce. Ms. Calderon: It must have been. We, we never did know about the divorce or whatever. Mr. Calderon: We, we helped Abby move into a house and while we were there Ramsey called and Abby talked to him awhile, and then, everybody that was there got an opportunity to, to talk to him. And, and, and I had that opportunity as well. So, when I picked up the phone I, you know, I asked him how he was doing. He said, "I'm doing OK. " He said, "I'm in great physical condition because what else is there time to do? " And he kept talking about his body building and stuff like that. I said, "What about your mind? " And he just laughed and didn't respond. But I mean, he was, he was a real disappointment to us. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, that’s before you left San Antonio, so, so you became pretty disillusioned or are you still Raza Unida all the way and, and on the ‘98, ‘78 for Mario Compean? Mr. Calderon: No, no. I, we were still, we were still considered Raza Unida, I mean, I still consider myself Raza Unida to this day. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you told me, you told me the other day at the demonstration. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. As, as a matter of fact, one of those resolutions I made was, was never to support a gringo candidate. I mean, I might vote for one, but I'm not going to go out and work for one. Because I've been over that or been there, done that kind of a thing. But, you know, there is some folks that I've talked to that are interested in reviving Raza Unida because we’re going backwards rather than forward. Dr. Gutiérrez: Is this in your Waco area or here in Austin or just in general? Mr. Calderon: Here. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: Here and in Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And there are people that would get on board right now. CONTINUED FROM RUBY CALDERON INTERVIEW Dr. Gutiérrez: So why did you take this job to create this college? [Juarez Lincoln in Austin.] Mr. Calderon: Well, first of all it was, it was a way of getting out of Waco. And I mentioned earlier that, that my wife was really close to her mother. And it was also a way of kind of drawing her away from that, from her mother. Not so far that she couldn’t go visit, but, you know, just to begin weaning, weaning her from, from that environment. Not because it was bad because you know eventually I knew she would go through the trauma of, of losing her mother as, as we all do or most of us do. But the job was attractive in the sense that the activity that we had gone through with Raza Unida was kind of a continuation because here was a Chicano university. The whites had their university, the Blacks had their university, now we were getting our university where our perspective could be transmitted. And, and in accepting the job, I, I knew that, that I was going to be as committed to that as, as we were to, to Raza Unida, you know. So, even though I was the editor of the Farm Worker Information Clearinghouse. . . I always have to stop and think about that. And, and did the editing for or the publishing of, of different things that came out of Juarez Lincoln that, that dealt with migrant farm workers and, and published, I think, one of the, the first bilingual documents that Juarez Lincoln or the Farm Worker Information Clearinghouse published. It was bilingual in the sense that, you know, you look at it one way and it was the English portion, you turn it over and the other cover is the, the, this, this portion in Spanish. And I had a real fight with some people in, in the Department of Labor that were Cuban. And, and when I sent the draft they made all kinds of corrections. And I took issue with those corrections because, you know, I knew that their Spanish was different than ours and the argument I had was mine was to communicate to farm workers, not the professors at the university level. Mine was to communicate to the working individual. And, anyway, won, won the argument and, and got it published that way. And, and other documents and the thing about Juarez Lincoln was that I had never in my life seen as many aggressive people in one place at one time. Everybody was, was real assertive, very aggressive and, and I think that, that, remember Robert Aguilar is the one that offered me the job. He was from Waco and I was from Waco, and later on, we brought in Johnny Arias from Waco. And we were always challenging Dr. [Leonard] Mestas, Andre Guerrero, you know, the different department heads. Not, not just for the sake of being challenging, but presenting our views. And Jose Flores, one time said to me, "Why are you people so damned aggressive? " And we go, "Well, you know, you’ve got to consider, you’re from Laredo. And what's the population of Laredo? " He says, "That’s not the point. " "And what’s the Chicano population? Clearly the majority, you know. But we come from a population that’s at the most ten percent of the population. Everything that we’ve gotten, we had to fight for. I mean, literally fight for. That’s why we’re so damned aggressive. It’s not that we mean to be offensive, it’s just that we’re committed to what we are doing. " Anyway, Juarez Lincoln chugged along and that, that was probably the most enjoyable job I've ever had in my life. Worked my butt off. I mean, not just, there were no hours. From, from work we would go to talk to a group of teacher aides about, you know, enrolling in the school, just doing the recruiting. Recruiting, trying to recruit people in Waco. We saw this as a real opportunity for people to get a degree that wouldn’t otherwise get it. So that, that continued and when Juarez Lincoln began having it’s problems. I mean that, that was really probably more devastating than, than the Ramsey Muniz and Flores Amaya thing. So, when the school went down the tube. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: When was that? Mr. Calderon: I really felt bad about that. It was in 1977, ‘78 when. And what happened was the board was taken over by, well, backing up a little bit. We had done our recruiting for students in a way that got Juarez Lincoln University to the position of being self-supporting. When that started happening, Antioch, who is actually the university that, that handed out the credentials for Juarez Lincoln, began asserting more and more pressure on us. This was out of the school of education for Antioch in Yellow Springs, Ohio. And I had been out at, a couple of us had been out to one of the elementary schools to talk to teacher aides about enrolling in the, the Bachelor program and we got about six people to agree to enroll in the, in the summer session. So we came back to the school and there was a meeting taking place in one of the rooms. Walked in and the dean of the school of education from Antioch was announcing we were going to close the school for the summer session. We are going to work on, on curriculum development and that kind of thing. And it was at that point that, that, that I had to, you know, get up and, and start talking. I mean, we’d just come from recruiting people for the summer session. We’ve got enough commitments to fill a class for the summer session. If you cancel this summer session, you’re programming us for failure because that word is going to get out in the community. I mean, these people are going to be ready to come to school come, you know, the, the end of May, and we’re going to say sorry, but we’re not having classes during the summer. That’s program, programming us for failure. And he went on ahead and you know, explaining that we were going to, we had to work on curriculum. I said, "Well we could do that without closing down the school. I mean, that’s an on-going process. You are always developing new curriculum. You don't close the school to, to direct, to, you know, develop curriculum. " Anyway, it went for naught. The, the school was closed for the summer and from that point forward we began having problems. The National Farmworker Organization, NAFO, be, began expressing some interest in some property that the school had in, in Mexico and also the property there that we were located at. So, the individual whose name that was at the Catholic organization, I forget the name of it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Campaign for Human Development? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. The Campaign for Human Development. Dr. Gutiérrez: Paul Sedillo? Mr. Calderon: The, the, the executive director of, of that. No, it wasn’t Sedillo. I never thought I'd forget his name. Anyway, he got NAFO representation on the board and then some more representation, so to make a long story short, they eventually took over the board of, of Juarez Lincoln University. Yeah. Because there were two, two different entities, Juarez Lincoln University and Juarez Lincoln, Inc. It got to the point where there was so much friction taking place that we decided we’d just kick Juarez Lincoln out. And that’s what we did. They, they went across the interstate and set up classes across the interstate. Well, the people that went with Juarez Lincoln with, with Antioch didn't have that commitment that we had, you know, in terms of recruiting. So, they started getting more and more problems. And eventually went down the tubes because they couldn’t get students. I was fired by Antioch because I didn't go with the people. I was on the Antioch payroll as a director of financial aid. I was fired by Antioch because I didn't go across the street with, with the people that, that were over there. And then, a little further down the road then NAFO again, through their, their control of the board, sold the property where Juarez Lincoln was located. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who’d they sell it to? Mr. Calderon: I don't know, but there’s an International House of Pancakes there now. Dr. Gutiérrez: How did they get the property to begin with? I heard that story that Amado Pena had donated the land. Mr. Calderon: How did who get it? Ms. Calderon: Juarez Lincoln. Mr. Calderon: I don't know how Juarez Lincoln got it. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: I, I really don't know. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Mr. Calderon: It, it was a church at, at one point. The building was, was a Baptist church. How Juarez Lincoln acquired it, I don't know. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: But Juarez Lincoln came from the St. Edward’s campus to that location on First and, and Interstate 35. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well all right, then we’ve got to ‘78. The ‘78 campaign is Mario Compean. What, what did you all do now? How did you interface with the Raza Unida group here? There was some, Armando Gutierrez probably. In another newspaper, Para La Gente (For The People) [name of newspaper]. Maria Elena Martinez is the, the state chair, I believe or if not Guadalupe Youngblood was. Mr. Calderon: No, I think Maria Elena was by that, by that time. We worked with, with the, the people still. I mean, out of, except this time it was out of Juarez Lincoln and, and a lot of the people in Juarez Lincoln had, you know, worked in the ‘74 and ‘72 campaigns, you know. So, it was like we never really changed because it, it, we were all of the same mind in terms of the Chicano Movimiento (Chicano Movement) or movement. I, I don't think that we went out as active as we did in the ‘72 and ‘74 because by then, I mean, we weren’t, we weren’t in the drivers seat. So, what we were doing was reacting to, to what other folks wanted us to do. Excuse me. But we did go to Waco and set up some meetings for Luis Diaz de Leon who was a senatorial candidate and for Mario. You know, like at, at one of the restaurants, El Conquistador (The Conquistador) setting up a news conference for them there having taken them out to the McClellan Community College to address students out there. So you know, we continued the activity, but not to the extent that, that, that we did in the beginning. Dr. Gutiérrez: Why do you think the party came to an end other than the obvious legal requirement that we had to have so many votes? Mr. Calderon: I, I don't know. I, I guess one of the reasons is, is the reaction from the Democratic party and that was that the doors began to open and more people began participating in that. That’s one. And I guess the other is people just got burnt out because that was a lot of work by a very small group of people. You know, each location you went it was a small group of people that were, that were doing the work. I, I don't think the idea has died. You know, certainly it hasn’t with us. Ms. Calderon: A lot of people didn't think that, all over my experience, is that they didn't think we were going to be a party. Excuse me. They just didn't think, you know, they would laugh at us, you know. We’d go door to door and stuff, you know, and, and you know, que andan haciendo aqui? (what are you doing here?) You know, like we’re crazy. I mean you know, this is not going to come about. And when it did they were surprised, you know. That, that’s my experience with some of the, you know, people talking and stuff. You know, you’re crazy. I mean, it will never happen. And we proved them wrong. Dr. Gutiérrez: Then why did it end? If we, if they were convinced then that you were right and what happened? Mr. Calderon: I don't know. Ms. Calderon: I don't know. We just. . . Mr. Calderon: Some of us started getting better jobs, I guess. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: And. . . Ms. Calderon: Leaving it alone. Mr. Calderon: . . . you know, saying let somebody else do it. Ms. Calderon: Yeah. But they never did. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. That kind of thing. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, let us, let’s, let’s, let’s try to compress twenty years here in, in a few minutes. The party is over. You are still going to be very active and I know you have been, so, so you’re kind of like rudderless, if you will, in that there’s no, no, no path to chart in one direction. You all have remained active. That’s what I want to ask you. Bring this public life activity to a close. What have you all been doing; what have you all been trying to do? I saw you last October 12th at a demonstration El Dia de la Raza [October 12th celebration] on pro-immigrant rights in the state capital, marching away. Had your buttons, had your cameras. You must be one of, of three unofficial photographers of the movimiento (movement) [Chicano Movement] because I know you’ve been taking pictures forever. I hope you have them all. Ms. Calderon: Oh yes. Dr. Gutiérrez: And, and that you will deposit them some place. As, as a favor, I would like to have a couple of them, maybe about six because I want to have different photographs for the books that I'm writing instead of the regular ones. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. I’ll, I'll get some. Dr. Gutiérrez: Bring this together here for me. What have you all been doing the last twenty years? And why are you still going at it? Mr. Calderon: Well I mean, this thing continues, I mean continued not just with the political activity, but anywhere that I've worked. From Juarez Lincoln University I went to work for McClellan Community College to set up a personnel office. One of the first things I began doing was trying to get more Chicanos hired at, at McClellan Community College. From there came back to, to Austin at Seton Medical Center as their employment manager. I mean, the struggle is the same everywhere you go. You gotta get more Chicanos hired. And I mean, it’s the political activity, and then, the, the, you know, being the, the advocate, you know, at your place of work. It, it, it’s an ongoing thing because no, I mean, it’s like we’re stealth people. I mean, we do the work, but we’re not seen, you know. And, and part of what I see as my responsibility is where we’re not represented, by god, we need to get represented, you know, as, as employees. Or if we have a state school that’s not providing services for the Chicano that, that has, you know, mental retardation or mental health problems, then start delivering the services. I know that when, when I was working at the Central Office of MHMR, the Mental Health and Mental Retardation, Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation, we put together a committee to address diversity issues. And I don't know, maybe twenty-five or thirty people in the room. I made the observation, you know, here we sit thirty years later, talking about the same issues. When in the hell are we going to move forward? The department is just as guilty as, as anyone else in not addressing Chicano issues. When you think minority, you think Black. And you got to get out of that. Our numbers are multiplying every day and pretty soon we’re going to overtake the Black in terms of, of our numbers. And, and I mean, we’ve seen that taking place. But it, it’s an ongoing battle. I mean, you, you, it, if, if you, if you lay back and, and that’s easy to do and become an addict of the boob tube. I mean, you’re, you’re a lot, there’s not as much demand placed on you and, and I don't see that as, as, as my purpose in life, to sit before the boob tube. We have to continue La Causa (The Cause) [Chicano Movement], you know, wherever we go. Walk into a bank, first thing I do is look around. How many Brown faces do I see? I’m sure you do the same thing. You go into a K Mart, look around, how many Brown salespeople do you see? You know, that kind of a thing. It’s continuous everywhere you go. You gotta do that. And, and if, you know, you have the, the opportunity, why the hell don’t you have a Chicana or Chicano cashier or department head or manager or whatever? When I went to work in Houston from, from here, I had worked with this gentleman at the San Antonio State School, the hospital, one of the tasks that I saw I needed to do was bring the representation, the racial representation for the agency more in balance. It was fifty five percent Black. It was something like eighteen percent white, about five, no it was greater than that, twenty something white, I guess. And then, we were about five percent. There was a good concentration of Asians as well. Well, part of my charge was to bring a better balance about in that environment. I mean, plus some other things that we had to address that were real, real management problems. They had to do with productivity and, and the whole works, but I mean, to, to answer the question. You continue at it because nothing changes. And, and if you want to change and be happy with, you know, where you’re at and what you’ve got, I mean, you know, that’s OK. But we’re just not built that way. CONTINUED FROM RUBY CALDERON INTERVIEW Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, who do you think is our most effective organizations? Mr. Calderon: I guess on the, on the national level, the National Council de la Raza. I, I guess because of, of their being so close to Washington, D. C. and, you know, some of the presentations that, that have been made to committees in Congress. And, you know, some of the things that Raul Yzaguirre has done, the conferences that they hold, that kind of a thing. LULACs aren’t doing nothing. G. I. Forum is not doing nothing. I don't see the Mexican American Democrats doing anything. You know, so in, in terms of organization, I mean, I think that’s where we are lacking. There’s not an organized effort to advocate for the Chicano community. And I mean, you know like I say, we’re going backwards and as our numbers increase, we become more and more of a threat, not only to the white, but to the Black, you know. So, somewhere along the way we have to get an organized effort to advocate for the Chicano community. It’s not taking place today. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. So, given that as a backdrop and who are the most effective leaders? Mr. Calderon: You know, I, I wish somebody else had asked me that question because the response I'm going to give is, is, you know, it, it’s not, it’s going to sound, it’s not going to sound as effective. But I think you’re one of them. Dr. Gutiérrez: But I'm inactive. Mr. Calderon: Well, but you’re one of those that can make a speech and get people enthused about something and there’s very few people that can do that. I mean, sure there are the [Gonzalo] Barrientos, you know, that, that’s a state senator, the, these people that, you know, and, and in terms of having the charisma to be a leader, I, I don't see it. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Well, again, given the backdrop of what you said earlier about organizations, what are the salient issues? What are the most important issues? What is it that we need to be advocating for? Mr. Calderon: Nothing has changed. It, it’s still the same. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, prioritize it. If, if you only could pick one. . . Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: . . . which one would you start? Mr. Calderon: It, it would have to be education. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Mr. Calderon: It would have to be education because our kids are being pushed out at, at the same rate that they were thirty, forty years ago. Nothing’s changed. We’ve got to keep our kids in school. If we don't, then they remain the resource to provide the back-breaking labor for this society. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you got a Masters out of Juarez Lincoln or, or wherever you got a Masters from and, and you certainly are well read and you keep up with current events. You are in all kinds of activities. Why do you think our kids continue to drop out, as, as you use the phrase this time? Mr. Calderon: I, I don't think the, the educational system has come into the Twenty-first century. It, it, the, the schools of education are not properly training people to be teachers. You know, so one of the things we have to do is apply pressure to the schools of education. And I understand that education is harder to change than is the church. For example, you know. But you know, they’re still into the, the, the paper, the, they are still into the, como se llama? (what’s it called?) The saber toothed tiger curriculum. I don't know whether you’ve ever heard of that. But there used to be, back in the cave. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, I know what the saber tooth is. Mr. Calderon: . . . back during the cave man days there used to be a curriculum to train people to kill saber toothed tigers. When the saber toothed tiger became extinct, they said, "Well, it’s still a good discipline. We need to continue teaching this, you know, because it’s good discipline. " Well, that’s where our educational system is today. Somehow they need to be brought up to date so that they can relate to all students. I mean, our kids are not dropping out because they are bad students. They are dropping out because there’s a bad educational system. There’s bad teachers that can’t teach these kids or won’t teach these kids. You know, so, that’s why they are dropping out. They can’t relate to that education. It’s the same way it was umpteen thousand years ago, you know. The, the, the, the, the country for us didn't start with the thirteen colonies. It started with [Hernan] Cortez down in Mexico and came up this way. And, and that’s why we have that constant influence. I mean, the, the, the English Only movement. As, as we relax more and more the system is going to come out with more things like the English Only thing. Cutting off affirmative action, which is one of the things I don't understand. I mean, not addressing the educational issues. We need to be constantly alert to what’s taking place, and then, move to get these things changed. Dr. Gutiérrez: What should we be doing in relationship with Mexico? Mr. Calderon: Well you know, on this side of the border you hear talk about a corrupt government. But it’s no different than the government here. You know what, what they call a mordida (bribe) down there is lobbying over here. It, it’s the same thing. I, I think we need to have ties to Mexico because you know, certainly Mexico is, is probably more sensitive to what we are looking for than is this country. At least that’s what has been exhibited to me anyway. I, I think we need to maintain ties with Mexico. Dr. Gutiérrez: What are the underpinnings of tension between Blacks and Browns? Mr. Calderon: I think Blacks see, see the numbers increasing and that’s going to threaten their position as those numbers increase. You know, the, we’ve tried before to work coalitions with Blacks. It’s successful up to a point, but you can’t, you can’t get beyond that. If you start advocating for services to the Chicano that’s where it stops. You know, the, the Black is not sharing that little piece of bone that they are getting and, and I can’t say that I blame them. But, the tension continues. And again, like our numbers, as our numbers increase and if we take those numbers and recognize that as a power base and begin using that, you know, to advocate for our, our people, then they are going to feel more and more stress because of our numbers. Dr. Gutiérrez: You. . . Mr. Calderon: It’s going to get worse before it gets better. Dr. Gutiérrez: Relations within the various subgroups of Latinos. Chicanos-Puerto Ricans, Chicano-Cubans, Chicano-Central Americans, the Hondurans, Salvadoran, Nicaraguan. Mr. Calderon: I, I think that was one of the beauties of the march in Washington was that it brought all, all of us together. I mean, certainly there, there’s not harmony within, with, you know, within the, the Latino community. But I think we need to work on, on consolidating forces because the, the populations of, of those other than, than Chicanos or Mexicanos is growing in the state of Texas. I mean, it’s growing in Austin, it’s growing in Houston, it’s growing a lot of other places. A very significant number of Salvadorans in Houston, Columbianos, Cubanos, Puerto Ricanos in Austin to some degree, the same thing. You know, so we’ve got to start, you know, talking to, to, to people that, that, that, you know, come from the different part of the, of the Caribbean and the Americas and that kind of thing. We got to do it. I mean, sure right now in Texas we’re the majority, but if, if they combine forces, they being the Cubanos, the other Latinos combine forces, then where are we going to be? You know, so, we’ve got to begin talking to each other and, and making cooperative efforts. Dr. Gutiérrez: Ruby, I need you to sign that deed of gift form right in front of you that you agree to do this. Ms. Calderon: Oh yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: Right there where it says donor. Any last words? Mr. Calderon: I, I don’t know. We, we’ve just got to get the wheels moving forward again. And, and I, I don't know how that, how that’s going to come about. Dr. Gutiérrez: These people that want to do a Raza Unida party again, why, why are they saying we need that? Mr. Calderon: Because we are going backwards. I mean, there, there’s no progress being made. I mean, we were invited to this, this session today by the Mexican American Democrats and, and of course we didn't because of this interview and I'm not sure that we would have anyway because I don't know. It, you know it’s important to participate in the election process, but I, I'm not so sure that it, it’s doing any good, you know. We, we need, what we are lacking is follow-up. That’s where we’re lacking. I mean, even if we elect our own, we got to follow-up. Because, for example, if Gus Garcia, as a city council member, wants to get something passed that’s going to benefit the Chicano community and he’s, he’s sitting there as the only Chicano on the city council and he doesn't have a roomful of people supporting what he’s going to say? Then, how effective is he going to be? See, we’ve got to follow-up to him, with him as an individual, but we also have to follow-up to support him in accomplishing the things that the community needs to have delivered to it. Dr. Gutiérrez: OK. Now you, you’ve got two booklets here. Did you want to go through it tambien (also) or what? What did you have in mind in terms of these two, about two booklets that you’ve got? Mr. Calderon: No, that’s just a piece of it. Ms. Calderon: Oh my. Mr. Calderon: I was just going through, through them and, and wanted you to see that, that, that what I'm doing is putting together all of these materials that I have. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, why, why don't you show us? I, I'll move the camera and, and you can show me as you go through it there. Ms. Calderon: You can sit over here. Dr. Gutiérrez: No, I'm just going to undo the camera and, and zoom from here. Ms. Calderon: I want to say that I was honored by you to wanting to ask us to, you know, talk about everything that we’ve been involved in and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Dr. Gutiérrez: And I thank you, Ruby. Ms. Calderon: Aqui tienes tu casa. (Here, you have your home.) Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. I can zoom so don’t, don't worry about it. You just do your, do your thing. Mr. Calderon: Well, I'm a, I'm a pack rat. I’m a collector. And, and I'm also a person that, that likes to have things organized. These are just documents that were, that we acquired during the course of our activity with Raza Unida. La Verdad (The Truth) [newspaper] is one of the instruments that, that Raza Unida put out. And this is just two issues of, of, of this magazine style newspaper, I guess you could call it. The rest of it is, you know, just documents that, that we’ve picked up during that activity. Raza Unida letterhead that was the state Raza Unida headquarters. A pamphlet that we had, different documents that, that we created in Waco. This is a letterhead that we came out with in Waco, you know. With, with our own, our own idea of having the, the Raza Unida party of Texas, and then, the watermark of the Aztec warrior. And, of course, down here is indicating McClellan County. But this is one of the pamphlets that was published in 1978 about Raza Unida and newspaper articles that, that had come out. This is where Ramsey was picked up for the drug thing. And then, newsletters, maps, lists, notes, agendas, communications, just all kinds of stuff that we’ve got that we, you know, collected through the years. Well, now that I'm retired it’s, it’s, it’s my job now to put all this stuff together and organize it. You know, file copies of, of the correspondence that was sent out. I, I don't know whether you recall or not, but I, I think I was the first statewide treasurer that was elected for Raza Unida party. So, I've got a lot of that stuff and. . . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Didn’t you run for the State Board of Education or something? Mr. Calderon: No. Dr. Gutiérrez: You never were a candidate other than internally? Mr. Calderon: No. What happened was as, as the state treasurer, the, they, if you remember, the convention that we had in San Antonio where I was elected treasurer, we passed the hat around and we collected something like seven thousand dollars in cash and what do you call them? Dr. Gutiérrez: IOUs? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. IOUs. That’s not the word. Commitments to, to. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Pledges? Mr. Calderon: . . . pledges to, to contribute, you know. So, because of the commitments we had in Waco, then that began kind of a, a war between McClellan County and the state headquarters fighting with, with Mario Compean to, to keep some of those funds. He wanted them all to go to San Antonio. And we had to support the, the headquarters in Waco, so that created a little bit of conflict. Dr. Gutiérrez: What’s in the other booklet? Mr. Calderon: It, it’s just volume II. Continuing the same thing. Except that this is some information that I've gotten off the Internet. There’s a Raza Unida home-page. Dr. Gutiérrez: Who, who started that? Mr. Calderon: It’s out of New Mexico. Dr. Gutiérrez: Juan Jose Pena? Mr. Calderon: I, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ms. Calderon: Mom. Yes, Excuse me. Mr. Calderon: So, I, I've, you know, just downloaded that kind of information. These, these over here. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: What’s the web address for the Raza Unida Web page? Mr. Calderon: It’s www.RU.com.org. I’m sorry. It’s, it’s listed as an organization and. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: So it’s org? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. .org, right. And they apparently are adding more and more information. There’s some stuff that, in there about some speeches that you’ve made. I don't know. Have you seen it? Dr. Gutiérrez: No. Mr. Calderon: It, it’s got some pretty good information in it, as far as. . . Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, you’re also collecting speeches. You showed me here. You want to pull it out and show me again for the record. You, you’re collecting or have already collected them. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. What, what I've done, during some of this activity, the Raza Unida activity, I managed to have a tape recorder with me so that I, I've got some of these things recorded on audio cassette. Raza Unida conference held in Austin July 1970, the poem "I Am Joaquin", and a speech by Jose Angel Gutierrez. And I don't, I don't have the date on that. The Raza Unida convention in San Antonio, Bell County, a Raza Unida rally. Armando Gutierrez lecturing on the Chicano movement. Juarez Lincoln University, a lecture by maestro (master teacher) Andres Segura in ‘83. Indigenous Medicine in History. And then I, I've been doing an oral history of La Alianza (The Alliance) by interviewing people that were members of the Alliance. And in that process am getting information that relates to each indi, individual organization that was a member of that. I’ve interviewed my mother, you know, just to record some of the history of the family, that kind of thing. Dr. Gutiérrez: And you’ve got two trays of this so far and how many more? Mr. Calderon: Two. I’ve started an interview with Abby Muniz. I need to finish that up. I’ve gotten one tape. We, we were lacking for time so we’ve got to pick that up. A lecture that I made on Ethnic Politics at Baylor University, another presentation to Baylor, Baylor University Political Science. Dr. Gutiérrez: Tell me about that election. I just remembered. There was an election of a Chicano mayor. [Rolando] Arreola was the one elected mayor, no? Mr. Calderon: Yeah. Dr. Gutiérrez: And he, you split it one term or one year or what was the deal? Mr. Calderon: What, what happened was that, that historically the mayorship rotates on the city council by those that are on the council the longest. And a Black had been on the city council for a pretty good while so he became mayor. When Rolando was elected to the city council, he got reelected and it came time for him to be the mayor. So, he wanted to be the mayor. But apparently they didn't want to make him mayor of the city of Waco. So what was negotiated was that he would serve half a term as mayor, and then, after the end of that half term, then he would give it up to whoever the, the council elected after that. But they would not let him serve the full term. Dr. Gutiérrez: Well, why? Mr. Calderon: They just didn't want that. They didn't, they didn't want him, I guess. I mean, it was, it was racist. I mean, to me. Dr. Gutiérrez: But they let the Black guy. Mr. Calderon: Yeah. But, you know, remember the, the Chicano was a small, smaller population in the city of Waco. Whether that had anything to do with it or by that time the, the hype of the Chicano activity in Waco had subsided somewhat, you know, so Roland either took half a term or nothing. And that’s how he became the mayor of Waco. Dr. Gutiérrez: I see. OK. Well, I want to thank you both for so much time. This has been a great interview. Thank you very much. Mr. Calderon: Thank you. Dr. Gutiérrez: Do you have any final words or anything you Mr. Calderon: Viva La Raza! (Long live the race!). Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Mr. Calderon: The fight continues. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. All right. We are starting up only because we forgot to ask him if he’s doing any, any writing. And, and Ernesto tells me he is doing an autobiography. So, tell us what, what is this work all about? Mr. Calderon: Well, one of the things that I thought needed to be done was the, the activity that took place in, in McClellan County needed to be documented. The work with the Alliance, the, the LULACs, and, and different things like that needed to be documented. So, what I thought I would do is do that by way of an autobiography. And I've started that to the extent that I've got something like two hundred plus pages written and, and doing it also as something to leave my family. If I get it published, that’s great. If I don't, that’s OK also. But the thing is that there’s a lot of things that needed to, to be documented and that’s why I chose to do an autobiography. The other thing is that we all have had interesting lives and I think that a lot of those make for good reading. I think this is going to be, make for good reading because it contains, you know, my childhood, my experiences during childhood, my military career, the career in politics, the career in education, and, and the work as a member of the work force and just different things. So it’s a work in progress that I hope to have completed sometime maybe within the next year or two. Dr. Gutiérrez: Oh great. Mr. Calderon: Ruby, are you writing anything or are you taking up photography now? Ms. Calderon: No. I’m taking up movies. Dr. Gutiérrez: You’re taking up, oh, you’re making movies? Ms. Calderon: I'm, no, I'm just taking your picture. Dr. Gutiérrez: All right. Well. . . Ms. Calderon: So I can show it around. Dr. Gutiérrez: For the, for the, for the. . . Ms. Calderon: I already got it. Dr. Gutiérrez: Second to the last time, thank you, again for, for doing this. And thank you Ruby. Tell me when you are going to take a picture of me. Ms. Calderon: Yes, I love that. Mr. Calderon: The battery needs to recharge. Ms. Calderon: OK. Whatever.